Police Ban Choke Holds
- Thread starter whitedust
- Start date
well way I see it, CHOKING OUT< is a fine line ,
it happens in a split second some times and not in others
some folks take longer to do so than others, its NOT normally PLANNED either to be honest, its designed to restrict there breathing, so they have less FIGHT in them!
and when its in use, IMO< it is pending on the reason WHY they are FIGHTING and WHO they are fighting in the first place!
I personally DON"T think its fair to take away any thing a officer can do to protect themselves period,
ever have to deal with someone HIGH on drugs that enhance strength and or dull pain!
all the more so if these people have intentions to HARM you!, NOT be taken into custody , and your ALONE with them>>
not all towns where violence and crime happens has HELP ASAP next to them!
its a hard job, that daily you have to make split second decisions, and your under scrutiny for everything you do, and most now HAVE to wear a body cam recording there actions??
the simple point is, when things are needed there needed and should be allowed, and I highly doubt any criminal will have any restrictions on what moves they can do?
fair is fair IMO
, but that is NOT to say, ABUSE of power should be allowed, NO that it shouldn't!
and I would bet cases of where its being OVER used, are far and few!
its a LOT easier for folks to throw stones that don't have to do the job law enforcement officers do!
Love to see folks being attached and trying to arrest or defend themselves, be told they CANNOT do something to STOP things!
abuse of any sort shouldn;t be allowed and its NOT, there are rules cops have to abide by!
but to say "X" move is banned, is BS IMO
Personally, I think most all cops, go thru great lengths to NOT use excessive force, due to FEAR of loosing there lively hood as is!
many use a LOT more self control than I know I would at times, , just watch some youtube video's of things they do and DON"T use deadly force they legally could have!
there will always be a few bad apples, that doesn;t mean they should punish ALL the good one's!
when a fight is on, i say ALL goes!
no one made a criminal break the law in the first place to get the law involved, and NO one made the criminal FIGHT police in the first place to get into situations where a choke MIGHT be used!
maybe if more criminals feared the law more, there would eb less crime??*(meant mostly as a joke)
as seems so few folks today have any respect or fear of the law and laws we now have!
how is making more laws help??
prior to this Media blow up on a knee being used, how many have heard or seen it happen before, or even worried about it??
and I hope this is not viewed as being political, as not meaning to go there!
it happens in a split second some times and not in others
some folks take longer to do so than others, its NOT normally PLANNED either to be honest, its designed to restrict there breathing, so they have less FIGHT in them!
and when its in use, IMO< it is pending on the reason WHY they are FIGHTING and WHO they are fighting in the first place!
I personally DON"T think its fair to take away any thing a officer can do to protect themselves period,
ever have to deal with someone HIGH on drugs that enhance strength and or dull pain!
all the more so if these people have intentions to HARM you!, NOT be taken into custody , and your ALONE with them>>
not all towns where violence and crime happens has HELP ASAP next to them!
its a hard job, that daily you have to make split second decisions, and your under scrutiny for everything you do, and most now HAVE to wear a body cam recording there actions??
the simple point is, when things are needed there needed and should be allowed, and I highly doubt any criminal will have any restrictions on what moves they can do?
fair is fair IMO
, but that is NOT to say, ABUSE of power should be allowed, NO that it shouldn't!
and I would bet cases of where its being OVER used, are far and few!
its a LOT easier for folks to throw stones that don't have to do the job law enforcement officers do!
Love to see folks being attached and trying to arrest or defend themselves, be told they CANNOT do something to STOP things!
abuse of any sort shouldn;t be allowed and its NOT, there are rules cops have to abide by!
but to say "X" move is banned, is BS IMO
Personally, I think most all cops, go thru great lengths to NOT use excessive force, due to FEAR of loosing there lively hood as is!
many use a LOT more self control than I know I would at times, , just watch some youtube video's of things they do and DON"T use deadly force they legally could have!
there will always be a few bad apples, that doesn;t mean they should punish ALL the good one's!
when a fight is on, i say ALL goes!
no one made a criminal break the law in the first place to get the law involved, and NO one made the criminal FIGHT police in the first place to get into situations where a choke MIGHT be used!
maybe if more criminals feared the law more, there would eb less crime??*(meant mostly as a joke)
as seems so few folks today have any respect or fear of the law and laws we now have!
how is making more laws help??
prior to this Media blow up on a knee being used, how many have heard or seen it happen before, or even worried about it??
and I hope this is not viewed as being political, as not meaning to go there!
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dfattack
Well-known member
Well for sure if the perp is in cuffs and on the ground...If cuffs aren't available or not on the subject then police can't have their hands cuffed either if you know what I mean. We can't swing this pendulum so far one way as to render the 99% of the police officers that are doing their jobs, putting their lives on the line for us everyday in jeopardy.
snomoman
Active member
Not to change the subject or anything (ha ha) but do you have any more bear pictures?
G
G
Guest
In the past when we have gone to war with one or another middle eastern country we have rules about what is permitted in 'war'. The countries we are at war with don't have any rules. Anything goes. That is one of the reasons we never win those wars. The same will happen here when we have rules that apply to policemen that limit their effectiveness. Choke holds and other means of neutralization were invented because there was a need for them. This is a slippery slope.
Says the guy that has never even seen three grown men struggle with a skinny meth head...
mezz
Well-known member
Absolutely agree, furthermore, when they have given up the fight & say they can't breathe, something should have been done sooner. If someone is that defiant, tasers are carried for a reason. Unnecessary force, regardless of race, color or creed should not be allowed. -Mezz
You should not assume things about someone you know nothing about. Lol I’ve done many things in my life time. Google Koga Method. I aced the course. There are many ways to control people without injuring them. It’s what you’re taught and who teaches you and above all keeping a cool head under pressure that counts the most.
well Have you ever watched a MMA fight, they choke each other constantly and many even PASS out from it being done, YET, there 99.9% of the time perfectly fine and NO one gets killed!
accidents can happen,
but a choke hold is nothing more than another TOOL that can be used correctly or not!
I also spent a lot of time in training in my younger yrs , as well as in actual fights
, some with folks HIGH on some thing that had almost UN human like strengths
, that even using trained skills, they can resists and not have same effects on them as if they were NOT on something to allow them to do so!
drugs can do amazing things to people and what they can handle and take at times!
I have seen folks HIGH on drugs get SHOT and NOT know it, so, don't try selling me., on some hands on skills is going to work 100% of the time
ina fight you DO all you have to to gain control period! all the more so when your LIFE is on the line!
I get a few hundred every week LOL
as of the past 3 weeks, I helped trap tag and relocate 3 different bears too!
so I get a lot of hands on with them too, besides just pictures and them in my yard
so yes some pic's LOL
However, this site for what ever reason is NOT allowing me to upload any today>
tried 3 times now and it won't allow me??
NO clue why, same sized pic's as always ?
so, sorry for now Have but cannot post pic's?
and I also am just replying to what you posted
as we all can do if we wish!
if one is to post something that leaves the door open to have other reply at what you said! , its what the reply with a quote option is for I THINK??
so again as for restricting air flow or breath??
it does NOT kill, until its taken TOO far! it can be used safely , and even if taken PAST that point, most times they can be revived as well!
a resisting person is a threat as long as there resisting! one does what they have to in them situations period to stay safe!
so, to say that just restricting it, kills is 100% wrong and non factual
not an opinion! but a fact!
many folks have been choked OUT and recovered just fine, as proof it doesn;t kill ALL the time,
or even MOST of the time for that matter!
I fully agree were all able to share/post our opinions and all, but facts are facts! LOL
as for bears??
as I said, yes
I got lots of bear pic's but cannot seem to get them to upload here now?? NO clue why either, I am NO computer guy, but how I normally post them is NOT working today here?
It's not just choke holds - it's about common sense
Arizona has recently been setting record's [sic] for police involved shooting's [sic]. See this article from AZCentral dated January 30, 2020 …
(click →) "Every 5 days, an Arizona officer shoots someone …".
Clearly there are occasion's [sic] where deadly force may be required of our LEO's, [sic] and I have no problem with that, but we have had case's [sic] of two or three officer's [sic] simultaneously emptying their service weapon's [sic] into and making Swiss cheese out of a perp waving a knife at a distance of 20-30 feet, and the like.
Seriously? A knife at 20-30 feet?
Even if the perp was (click →) James Bowie himself, isn't that overkill?
Wheres [sic] the common sense?
(You'll notice that I have given up the fight, and have decided to refrain from nagging and preaching, and instead to "go with the flow" by adopting the common practice in this forum of using "apostrophe-s<nbsp><nbsp>" in plurals, and omitting the apostrophe where it belongs, as in elisions and contractions.
Hmm, should I have spelled "Swiss" as "Swis's" too?
) </nbsp></nbsp>
Arizona has recently been setting record's [sic] for police involved shooting's [sic]. See this article from AZCentral dated January 30, 2020 …
(click →) "Every 5 days, an Arizona officer shoots someone …".
Clearly there are occasion's [sic] where deadly force may be required of our LEO's, [sic] and I have no problem with that, but we have had case's [sic] of two or three officer's [sic] simultaneously emptying their service weapon's [sic] into and making Swiss cheese out of a perp waving a knife at a distance of 20-30 feet, and the like.
Seriously? A knife at 20-30 feet?
Even if the perp was (click →) James Bowie himself, isn't that overkill?
Wheres [sic] the common sense?
(You'll notice that I have given up the fight, and have decided to refrain from nagging and preaching, and instead to "go with the flow" by adopting the common practice in this forum of using "apostrophe-s<nbsp><nbsp>" in plurals, and omitting the apostrophe where it belongs, as in elisions and contractions.
Hmm, should I have spelled "Swiss" as "Swis's" too?
) </nbsp></nbsp>
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Arizona has recently been setting record's [sic] for police involved shooting's [sic]. See this article from AZCentral dated January 30, 2020 …
(click →) "Every 5 days, an Arizona officer shoots someone …".
Clearly there are occasion's [sic] where deadly force may be required of our LEO's, [sic] and I have no problem with that, but we have had case's [sic] of two or three officer's [sic] simultaneously emptying their service weapon's [sic] into and making Swiss cheese out of a perp waving a knife at a distance of 20-30 feet, and the like.
Seriously? A knife at 20-30 feet?
Even if the perp was (click →) James Bowie himself, isn't that overkill?
Wheres [sic] the common sense?
(You'll notice that I have given up the fight, and have decided to refrain from nagging and preaching, and instead to "go with the flow" by adopting the common practice in this forum of using "apostrophe-s<nbsp><nbsp>" in plurals, and omitting the apostrophe where it belongs, as in elisions and contractions.
Hmm, should I have spelled "Swiss" as "Swis's" too?
well considering a knife cqn be thrown 20-30 ft I am sure by most humans aliove??
I wouldn;t say there is ZERO threat at that range
I have not read nor know of these shootings you speak of(nor care to look into them)
but on a BIG picture of how many cops ther are and HOW many actually use a firearm(hand gun, rifle shotgun machine gun or??)
I can assure is a VERY VERY VERY small percentage of officers on the job!@
like everything in life, every thing has to be based on the condition at the time, and each case would need to be looked at, before one can judge the whole and say , things are on the rise
hopw many cases of injuries on officers in the same area do you know of or looked into??
maybe there on the rise and thus, adding a level of more active responses faster due to such??
variables exist in all things, and would have to be looked at before casting a shadow of saying SHOOTINGS of unreasonable just are happening!
and BY the way, cops all ain;t expert shooters or marksmen, its NOT like in the movies, how things work either!
cops are trained to SHOOT till the threat is stopped, its not about shooting to WOUND a bad guy!, like it or nor, deadly force is just that deadly,as it should be!
don't want to get shot by cops, DON"T put yourself in that position in the first place
if you got a KNIFE and they got a gun, simple math here, DROP the knife?? there BOTH weapons!
ain;t no prize for being stupid in the world you know?? LOL
mrbb: I hope you realize that my post was simply a Reply to Thread, I wasn't responding to your post specifically.
One case in particular, the perp was holding the (butcher) knife hanging down at waist level. Can you throw a baseball while holding it at waist level? Would the task be any different with a knife held at waist level?
If a knife were held in front of the body, pointed "menacingly" forward at an LEO, could it be thrown from that position?
Or would it take some deliberate movement of the hand and arm, in a "throwing motion"?
Okay, if such a motion is observed, then go for it, riddle him with bullets, put him down!
It seem's [sic] to me a bit more realistic "threat assessment" is needed here.
P.S. I've had a bit of firearms/weapons training myself, including combat arms training. And after my time with the MTU Army ROTC rifle team, I was chosen from our AG Officer Basic Training class at Ft. Benjamin Harrison, IN to join the Fifth Army's Advanced Marksmanship Unit at the NRA's National Matches at Camp Perry, OH. I rarely qualified below Distinguished or Expert Marksman in any such marksmanship competition, FWIW.
And thus my reference to James Bowie.
One case in particular, the perp was holding the (butcher) knife hanging down at waist level. Can you throw a baseball while holding it at waist level? Would the task be any different with a knife held at waist level?
If a knife were held in front of the body, pointed "menacingly" forward at an LEO, could it be thrown from that position?
Or would it take some deliberate movement of the hand and arm, in a "throwing motion"?
Okay, if such a motion is observed, then go for it, riddle him with bullets, put him down!
It seem's [sic] to me a bit more realistic "threat assessment" is needed here.
Yes, exactly; and in part for that reason cop's [sic] are also trained to shoot at the center of mas's [sic]; none of this sometime's [sic] heard BS about "why didn't they shoot him in the arm, leg, ect. [sic]!"
P.S. I've had a bit of firearms/weapons training myself, including combat arms training. And after my time with the MTU Army ROTC rifle team, I was chosen from our AG Officer Basic Training class at Ft. Benjamin Harrison, IN to join the Fifth Army's Advanced Marksmanship Unit at the NRA's National Matches at Camp Perry, OH. I rarely qualified below Distinguished or Expert Marksman in any such marksmanship competition, FWIW.
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You couldn't pay me any amount of money to be a cop in today's world. I dont think i would be any good at it either. Someone 20-30 feet holding a knife, on crack, meth, coke, pot, booze, or just plain everyday crazy, comes towards me... should i give them a time out??? People who dont respect law enforcement are going to get many different responses from different officers, but in the end, the cop does what he feels is necessary to end the confrontation. There is not enough time to send out a shrink and try to figure out why the bad guy is acting this way? People who dont live by a big city, dont have any idea what happens EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK. 35-100 shootings every week in Chicago, maybe they should try giving time outs, or sit in the corner little Joey? Its the real world, act like a human, and you will be treated like one. Sorry if i offended anyone, i am just tired of it.
and again, I am also ONLY replying to things YOUR posting, and not just posting in general, which is the reason for quoting, and my posts have been directly related to WHAT you posted!
as for when a person is holding a knife at there waist or lower, can they throw it??
SO?? a threat still, , yes they are still holding a weapon and refusing I gather to comply with commands! that shows intent or possible intent!
so, answer is, WELL<
NO and YES,
as how long does it take for them to raise up and throw it if they suddenly decide to?
should they be shot due to holding a knife, odds are IMO, NO< but I am NOT there to know all the details and what led to this point either, nor were you, which really matters in the big picture!
and to be honest most storied or video's by the modern media and or even private phone pic's videos, that show someone being shot or abused by police these days, they very seldom IF ever, show what happened BEFORE that point!
so your never getting the whole story of what REALLY happened!
see something out of context and it can alter views a LOT!
there is always more to the story than just what the media shows 99.9% of the time!
so, when you look at your link that tells of all the shootings in AZ< , well again, most all are NOT due to folks being shot holding Knifes
most all have firearms, from what I read in that link
so, what's the point of trying to blame officers on using excessive force, I didn;t see anything where there was a HIGH amount of officers being found guilty of anything of the sorts
so that link, just tells me, there is a LOT of violent criminals in AZ, nothing to me says excessive force problems with cops there at all!
like it or not, some places just have higher rates of crimes and some have higher rates of VIOLENT crimes and criminals!
and a such, law enforcement is forced to adapt to meet the issues first handed to try and stop them!
this topic was about choke holds any how?/ LOL
as again, every case of anything being POSSIBLY considered excessive force, is always investigated CLOSELY these days, the media EATS up this crap, and LOVES to make a fuss about it!
SO< I highly doubt there are but a few rare occasions when excessive force is actually found to have been used!
COPS< don;t want the hassle of loosing there lively hood over doing so, nor the possible negatives that also come from it.
I am personal friends with a LOT off folks in law enforcement and the military all over the USA and even in a few other countries
and trust me, the ramification that come AFTER a shooting, few want to deal with, , a shooting is normally a very very very last resort ,
They are typically protected by the dept they work for, but after they quit, retire or move on to other jobs, that can haunt them from civil law suits, to other ways
trust me, NO cop, shoots anyone without a LOT of trying to solve things some other way 99.9% of the time,
there will always be bad apples and exceptions to the norm, but NO one honestly takes shooting anyone lightly, MINUS maybe a criminal!
and by the way I have also been about REAL shooting, been shot(stabbed too), and have seen people shot/killed and have personal friends that have killed others to know the full effects a shooting can have AFTER the fact, NO one is taking them lightly I know!
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and I fully agree, I wouldn;t want the job now, way too much liability on your shoulders, and to think how many people are cops, that get paid so little to do what they do and take the risks they do
and I don;t just mean risks of personal injury,
the legal side of risks now are way higher and more dangerous maybe??
small town cops, here get paid so little, I am surprised anyone wants the job period??
my hats off to those that do the work and take the risks!
there way under appreciated IMO!
Agree 100
these cops are in a no win situation.
they go easy on a suspect for fear of the social justice mob crucifying them and next thing you know their catching a bullet in their head.
how about every suspect cooperate with an officer and maybe you won't die that day.
these cops are in a no win situation.
they go easy on a suspect for fear of the social justice mob crucifying them and next thing you know their catching a bullet in their head.
how about every suspect cooperate with an officer and maybe you won't die that day.