Snow / Cold Moving Further North Every Year

[chords]

I have noticed the trend of snow/cold moving further north. For 45+ yrs I've been going to a Large N Lower MI lake. Lake ice would be froze thick and safe early/mid Jan. Now late Jan into first or second week of Feb. And much less snow.
It may be a 100 -200 yr ?? cycle. IDK. No one does.
Call it what you want but its real.

 

[snobuilder]

I have noticed the trend of snow/cold moving further north. For 45+ yrs I've been going to a Large N Lower MI lake. Lake ice would be froze thick and safe early/mid Jan. Now late Jan into first or second week of Feb. And much less snow.
It may be a 100 -200 yr ?? cycle. IDK. No one does.
Call it what you want but its real.

Are you drunk?

 

[old abe]

No, he is not drunk. We can't ice fish today at home, where we did 55 years ago, due to inadequate ice of now days. Some of our fishing spots barely freeze over, if at all. Snowmobiled a many days, and many miles at home 40 years ago. Never had to travele further than SW Wis. for good trails to ride. Some of these same counties barley get to open their trails now. Some Wis. trails have not been open for several years. We, and our riding friends, have been chasing snow to ride further, and further north, for many years now. Sparta/BRF/, and Osseo, used to be our mainstay, last resort destination for good riding. Not so now days. My good friends in the Dakota's raise crops that they could not have even grown 30/40 years ago. They tell us that their farming has changed dramatically in the past 40 years. This, as they tell me, is due to a longer growing season??? I think grub, and bearrassler can relate to that??? Sorry, but that's the way it is. My friends in Canada also tell me that the winter season is not what it used to be. They see thaws now that did not happen as often, or get as warm, in the past. It's much later for things to freeze up so as to be able to open the snowmobile trails. SE Ontario doesn't get the snowfall that they used to. Yes, winter has changed, and we will keep chasing snow, and riding where we can. No intentions of giving it up!!!!

 

[gary_in_neenah]

Chords, I think most of us that have been around that long would agree with your thoughts. I began keeping a journal on this very subject about 10 years ago and it shows that the winter of 2013/14 was the last time that Wisconsin had a consistently cold and snowy winter. We still had a couple of winter thaws but the frequent snow falls and storms overcame that. So much so that the snow melt in the spring helped bring the Great Lakes back to their normal levels. That was the year that we heard the old timers say "winter like it used to be". I'm not sure if it's a trend, cycle, or whatever you want to call it but it appears to be real. From where I sit the "snow line" has moved about 100 miles north in Wisconsin. Anything north of Hwy 8 is still considered the snow belt and anything south would be a gamble. There's going to be exceptions like 2013/14 but as a rule things have changed.
One final thought I have is this. We're better prepared for winter weather than 45 years ago through technology. Our homes are better insulated and the furnaces are more efficient. With fuel injection, our vehicles almost always start. As a small child I recall Dad putting chains on the rear tires of the car, providing it would start in cold weather. And we've all seen our local weatherman/person on TV issue grave warnings for a 4 to 5 inch snowfall. Really?

One head scratcher I can't explain is our summers....sure we have a few heatwaves but typically it still rains, the crops grow, the bees pollinate and life is good. So, we've got that going for us i guess.

 

[renegade]

https://dnr.wi.gov/wnrmag/html/stories/1996/dec96/weather.htm
I'll post this arcticle here too, it seems more appropriate. I guess my point to this whole discussion is that just because you ice fished 55 years ago in northern IL, you assume it was that cold or colder prior to your existance, and now it has changed. I have read books about Indians starving in the UP during warm winters in the UP cause of warm weather. And that was the 1700's. They can't get in deep enough water to ice fish on the big lakes.

 

[renegade]

I'm not a farmer, but I would guess engineering in seed varieties has a lot more to do with widening the growing ranges of crops then weather.

 

[WorkHardPlayHrd]

Many more varieties of corn under 85 days, soybeans down to 0.4 maturity and they can still yield really well.

The old big wood burning stove that used to be in the basement of my father's house in Holmen Wi by La Crosse had date's and year's of major snowfalls scratched on the pipes. There were many snowfalls and consecutive winters of heavy long lasting snow in the 40's, 50's, and 60's. That just doesn't happen there anymore. My Dad had no problem saying we had it easy until the 2013-14 winter. Then even he agreed it was miserable, and it wasn't because of the snowfall. It was because of the 58 days that we had get below zero.

Trails here south of Eau Claire were open most of the winter. We rode the 31st of March that year, but due to the cold we spent most of the winter fighting to keep the farm going instead of enjoying the trails. A week straight of negative 20 plus at night just makes things miserable.

 

[Skylar]

I can remember plenty of winters in the 70's and 80's with very little snow, here in south central Wi. It's a cycle, always has been, always will be.

 

[Grant Hoar]

Yeah, it is all cyclical and we dont really know where are in the cycle. If we were all sitting at our keyboards 10,000 years ago we would have been under a mile of ice.

 

[old abe]

https://dnr.wi.gov/wnrmag/html/stories/1996/dec96/weather.htm
I'll post this arcticle here too, it seems more appropriate. I guess my point to this whole discussion is that just because you ice fished 55 years ago in northern IL, you assume it was that cold or colder prior to your existance, and now it has changed. I have read books about Indians starving in the UP during warm winters in the UP cause of warm weather. And that was the 1700's. They can't get in deep enough water to ice fish on the big lakes.

Not at all intended that way renegade. No preaching here!!! Just telling what I have encountered in my years past. I am a realist. It is what it is. Such as, deal with reality, or reality will surely deal with you. A older man advised me of this many years ago. It's been good advice. As I have been in ag for many years, I follow Elwin Taylor at ISU. Climate, and weather norms continually change. Always have, and always will, for many, many reasons. So, I will continue to snowmobile when ever, and where ever I can!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[xcr440]

I can remember plenty of winters in the 70's and 80's with very little snow, here in south central Wi. It's a cycle, always has been, always will be.

Agreed - my dad has plenty of pictures with zero snow in late January throughout the years. Just one that I remember is January 24th, 1981, with my brother and sister in front of our house holding a sign that said 54 degrees, and there was nothing white anywhere around us in the pic.

 

[G]

The springs seem much the same as they have always been. It is the fall season that seems to be stretching. Around here anyway. The average date of first frost used to be Sept 15 right here where I live. That was according to old 50s era records. The last 10 years the first killing frost has not come for about ten days after Sept 15. The rivers and lakes seem to all freeze up later than they used to. Duh. Therefore the winter is cut shorter by a little bit. It also depends on if you get a big dump of snow early to reflect the sun. Things cool down much quicker then. However the ice on LOW is said to be four feet thick this year even with our 'short' winter. It is true that there are new seed varieties that mature quicker. But it is also true that the growing season is getting longer. By the time I am dead they will probably be growing bananas up here.

 

[Grant Hoar]

Grub, it will happen sooner than that.

This site has already sprouted a few bananas of its own!

 

[xcr440]

However the ice on LOW is said to be four feet thick this year even with our 'short' winter.

48" of ice up there in mid February, and from a guy that was up there last weekend, they were drilling holes that went 53"......

 

[bearrassler]

The springs seem much the same as they have always been. It is the fall season that seems to be stretching. Around here anyway. The average date of first frost used to be Sept 15 right here where I live. That was according to old 50s era records. The last 10 years the first killing frost has not come for about ten days after Sept 15. The rivers and lakes seem to all freeze up later than they used to. Duh. Therefore the winter is cut shorter by a little bit. It also depends on if you get a big dump of snow early to reflect the sun. Things cool down much quicker then. However the ice on LOW is said to be four feet thick this year even with our 'short' winter. It is true that there are new seed varieties that mature quicker. But it is also true that the growing season is getting longer. By the time I am dead they will probably be growing bananas up here.

I agree with Grub in this area, except where I am about 60 miles south of him the first frost the last quite a few years has been as late as mid October, the springs seem about the same, some early and some late. This year is a little on the late side with everything still froze up pretty solid. We started a wet cycle in about 1993 and with that we have had mostly a little cooler summers and late falls. We have not been 100 degrees in the summer since then as the dew points are generally higher which doesn't allow the temps to get as high. They say the 50's had very little snow and I was around for part of it but don't remember, the 60's were good snow, the 70's were good snow, the 80's were poor, the 90's good, the 2000's both good and bad, and the 10's have also been good and bad. There are always exceptions though and it still gets real cold here in the winter. I also think part of the having to go further north is the newer sleds need more snow to run them with the higher lug tacks and some other changes, my 66 Viking with bogie wheels ran fine in one or two inches of snow.

 

[chords]

My 45 year observation is not about how much snow falls or doesn't fall during a given season.
Each winter is different with up and down temps and snowfall. But its the general trend I've noticed of cold consistent artic air required to freeze over a 9,000 acre lake coming later and later into Jan into early Feb. to actually allow any kind safe ice thickness. With no correlation to max thickness or when ice out may happen.

 

[wirev]

I'm not a farmer, but I would guess engineering in seed varieties has a lot more to do with widening the growing ranges of crops then weather.

That's right. There is corn seed that can be grown in northern North Dakota where there wasn't much not too many years ago.

 

[DamageInc]

No, he is not drunk. We can't ice fish today at home, where we did 55 years ago, due to inadequate ice of now days. Some of our fishing spots barely freeze over, if at all. Snowmobiled a many days, and many miles at home 40 years ago. Never had to travele further than SW Wis. for good trails to ride. Some of these same counties barley get to open their trails now. Some Wis. trails have not been open for several years. We, and our riding friends, have been chasing snow to ride further, and further north, for many years now. Sparta/BRF/, and Osseo, used to be our mainstay, last resort destination for good riding. Not so now days. My good friends in the Dakota's raise crops that they could not have even grown 30/40 years ago. They tell us that their farming has changed dramatically in the past 40 years. This, as they tell me, is due to a longer growing season??? I think grub, and bearrassler can relate to that??? Sorry, but that's the way it is. My friends in Canada also tell me that the winter season is not what it used to be. They see thaws now that did not happen as often, or get as warm, in the past. It's much later for things to freeze up so as to be able to open the snowmobile trails. SE Ontario doesn't get the snowfall that they used to. Yes, winter has changed, and we will keep chasing snow, and riding where we can. No intentions of giving it up!!!!

What makes you think 1963 was a benchmark for "normal" weather? There is no such thing as "normal" weather in southern WI or northern IL, because the jet stream there causes it to vary so much. There are only averages of those extremes, not normal temps.

Read this from the other thread: https://dnr.wi.gov/wnrmag/html/stories/1996/dec96/weather.htm

Why did you choose 1960s as what "normal" should be, instead of the 1930s, which were warmer than recent winters?

 

[old abe]

What makes you think 1963 was a benchmark for "normal" weather? There is no such thing as "normal" weather in southern WI or northern IL, because the jet stream there causes it to vary so much. There are only averages of those extremes, not normal temps.

Read this from the other thread: https://dnr.wi.gov/wnrmag/html/stories/1996/dec96/weather.htm

Why did you choose 1960s as what "normal" should be, instead of the 1930s, which were warmer than recent winters?

Where did I single out 1963??? All I have said is what I have encountered thru my years. I have not said anything about what should be "normal". I'm not promoting anything here. Over my years up to now, winter/cold/snow season comes later, more rain, and less snow. Helps me with harvest. Climate continually change, and so do the weather norms, for many reasons, and cycles. Post #11 tells of holding a sign saying 54 degrees of late January, in Minn??? Why??? Was that normal, or what??? Farmers in the Dakota's have told us the main reason they can grow today, what they could not 30 years, and prior, is the longer growing season now??? Later killing frost/freeze. Farmers in eastern Ontario, Ca. tell me of the same. I except it for what it is. I can do nothing about it anyway.

 

[DamageInc]

Where did I single out 1963??? All I have said is what I have encountered thru my years. I have not said anything about what should be "normal". I'm not promoting anything here. Over my years up to now, winter/cold/snow season comes later, more rain, and less snow. Helps me with harvest. Climate continually change, and so do the weather norms, for many reasons, and cycles. Post #11 tells of holding a sign saying 54 degrees of late January, in Minn??? Why??? Was that normal, or what??? Farmers in the Dakota's have told us the main reason they can grow today, what they could not 30 years, and prior, is the longer growing season now??? Later killing frost/freeze. Farmers in eastern Ontario, Ca. tell me of the same. I except it for what it is. I can do nothing about it anyway.

You wrote: "We can't ice fish today at home, where we did 55 years ago, due to inadequate ice of now days."

55 years ago was 1963.

Did you read that link yet? I think it will help you understand that weather and climate are constantly changing, and that it's normal to have extended trends of cooling and warming.