Are you hungry? because if you do indeed read the post you will see it was a coordinated plan and it includes the MSA. KAWWWWWW KAWWWWWW
what's that crunching sound??? lol
possibly crow bones? I really am baffled at how people misinterpret easy to read text. This text from the DNR:
A citizens' advisory workgroup (comprised of trail-riding enthusiasts, trail maintenance organizations, members of the DNR's Snowmobile Advisory Workgroup and the Michigan Snowmobile Association) made recommendations to the DNR, resulting in these upcoming changes. Technical support for the workgroup was provided by recreation and law enforcement staff of the DNR and the U.S. Forest Service.
"The changes to the motorized trail signage program is the result of a collaborative process with stakeholder groups and should be a real improvement for trail users," said Ron Olson, chief of the DNR's Parks and Recreation Division. "The sign reductions will result in less clutter along the trails and provide for more consistency statewide."
all this from the DNR that includes recommendation from the MSA and yet were still confused Did they all disagree with each other and yet claim it was a coordinated effort. Working together this is the plan they have implemented, which by the way will be phased in over the next few years
some are just bored and want to argue. some lack the maturity to see other points of view. some are just to lazy to do the research. some ??? who knows. But to bash MSA, or any club or volunteer then you know they are without a clue.
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nothing to offer? Maybe I can help you out!
notice the MSA was one of the contributors, I am simply reiterating the points made by studies of other organizations and seeing how it has helped in Canada. Do you see me blurting out none basis statements?
DNR improves trail signage for this season's ORV, snowmobile riders
[SIZE=-1]Contact: [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Steve Kubisiak, 517-373-1665 or Ed Golder, 517-335-3014 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Agency:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Natural Resources[/SIZE]June 18, 2012
The Department of Natural Resources announced today that snowmobile and off-road vehicle (ORV) trail riders will soon notice a reduction in the types of trail markings along the more than 10,000 miles of Michigan's designated motorized trail system. The DNR implemented these changes to improve safety and provide consistent guidance to the more than 90 non-profit organizations that maintain the trails.
A citizens' advisory workgroup (comprised of trail-riding enthusiasts, trail maintenance organizations, members of the DNR's Snowmobile Advisory Workgroup and the Michigan Snowmobile Association) made recommendations to the DNR, resulting in these upcoming changes. Technical support for the workgroup was provided by recreation and law enforcement staff of the DNR and the U.S. Forest Service.
Changes include the elimination of 10 workgroup-selected snowmobile signs, the addition of five new snowmobile signs (plus guidelines for placement), and a reduction in the size of regulatory signs in the ORV program to make them consistent with snowmobile signage (already implemented in 2011). The changes also include replacing ORV trail markers with new, highly visible, yellow markers. Installation will be phased in over the next several years.
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nobody cares....'bro"!!
Nice post, very detailed and thought out. This is what I like when we get into important discussions, real deliberate facts that directly pertain to the topic and thank you for that!
I just wanna make a few quick comments on the 3 you posted.
1. Trail clutter- As for the rider it is subjective but for the DNR and clubs it lowers costs. Every time we go out to do trail brushing we check every single post. I personally have helped do this and we ride up to the post on our ATV's and grab it to see if it's tight or ready to fall over. If they are loose we drive a wooden wedge along side the post to tighten it up in the hole. If sign post are broken off we use a gas powered auger and bore a hole to set the post in. Dealing with less sign, post will cost less and leave the look of the trail less cluttered. Remember, less clutter is a result of the initiative. So, regardless if we see the signs as clutter or not, there are benefits of less signage concerning expenses and maintaining said signage.
2. Reduce speed- the loss of signs so far have not proven dangerous. Statements posted in general are positive. Now this part is the tricky part where we may not see eye to eye but lets try. If we are riding the trail and have less signs to interpret we really have no choice but to figure out the situation and the natural response will be to lower speed to figure it out. Only speed gives you the adequate time to respond to a situation. The more time given by the rider the better decisions we make. Signs often give more awareness of a particular condition but as a sport that involves few rules and high speeds, the signs (IMO) enable higher speeds and less caution because the prediction level has been increased by the sign. A rider seeing less signs has no option but to take action to be prepared because he is receiving no help in the matter. Kinda like walking along a trail in Colorado and at the the trail head you get a warning of caution "rattle snakes." Your gonna walk the trail in a manner you see best fit to not get bit, you don't just ignore the possibility of hazards! This is the same sort of situation. Snowmobiling offers hazardous conditions that we must respond to and accept the responsibility. Signs are an attempt to help us but not to replace our existing built in conscious decision making. The inherent risks will always exist and the premisis of placing all the responsibility on the rider is IMO a worthwhile endeavor. I mean we have to draw some conclusion given the data provided, as non scientific as it may be, but yet is it info based on actual experience. You mention "real world" but that is speculation and it cannot supersede the stated experiences posted. You know what I mean? Please correct me if I am wrong as I will accept error, learning is king!
3. Reduce lawsuits- I honestly know little about that and cannot offer any useful opinions or experiences to elaborate.
You are 100% correct is saying we need more time to collect info regarding all this stuff but at the same time we have something that points us in a direction of understanding. I just hope data is interpreted correctly. Example, a group of riders crash and explain poor signage as the culprit when 30,000 sleds prior ride the same area and no problems, see what I am getting at?
Completely disagree, if you can't ride the trails, without a fricken sign every 20 yards, you shouldn't be snowmobiling.
With regards to #1: Thanks for opening my eyes to the maintenance factor. I really had not considered that. I do agree that spending time and money maintaining signs that have little to no benefit is wasteful and would be better spent elsewhere (like grooming).
With regards to #2: I understand the reasoning here and I agree with this idea on paper. However, you give more credit to Ricky Racer as being rational, respectful, and courteous than I do. You believe that Ricky will slow down because there are fewer signs to warn him of dangers; I don't. I believe Ricky does what Ricky wants, signs be damned. He's the greatest rider ever; just ask him and he'll tell you. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
Every 20 yards, really? Wow....I guess my eyes are worse than I thought they were, because I've never noticed that many.
We already covered all of this. Remember a man has two reasons for doing everything, the real one and a good one. I find it EXTREMELY difficult to believe that some people sat around and said we need to slow snowmobiles down, so let's remove signs. Illogical and improbable.
Just because an individual in one of these organizations states something in public does not mean it's true.
From Bill Manson's missive of January/February 2013 as quoted in post #90.
"Issues are arising when a sign falls down. Lawsuits are being filed because other curves were signed." MONEY
"This update of will also combine ATV and snowmobiling signs when and where they can be, and bring them all to a uniform size. Currently, a snowmobile “Stop” sign is18x18 inches, while an ATV “Stop” sign is 24x24 inches. This revision will bring uniformity to the sizing of signs for motorized vehicles on the trails." MONEY
IMO this all started because some smart guy noticed money could be saved if there were more "UNIFORMITY" to ALL motorized vehicles on the trail. Great idea right. Less clutter, you know what else it also saves MONEY.
MICHIGAN SNOWMOBILE AND TRAILS ADVISORY COUNCIL (Council)
MEETING MINUTES
February 21, 2012
Approved April 23, 2012
"The SAW is working with DNR staff (Steve Kubisiak) regarding the budget and will analyze the information at the June 19
meeting; Sharon Schaffer, Chief, Finance and Operations, will be in attendance. The final draft
of the Michigan Motorized Trail Sign Handbook includes less signs (less cost, less follow up)
and is estimated to save a couple thousand dollars. Sign orders are due in April."
To me this is the smoking gun.
"LESS COST, LESS FOLLOW UP"
These are the actual notes from the meeting which is approximately one year before Bill Manson's missive of January 2013. The actual reasons listed in the actual meeting. Less cost, less follow up. Two great reasons to do something.
Lastly, I remember at least one news article stating all the removed signs would be resold. MONEY. I forgot where I saw it but could probably find it.
Not saying me, but I assume a lot of people are tired of hearing about this issue and thus the lack of resistance to some of the opinions.