$10 Fee increase for Michigan Trail Pass next year
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xsledder-
This is not meant as criticism towards you, in fact, my purpose is just the opposite. It is to try and ease your pain a bit. We have e mailed back and forth a bit and in those e mails I can see you are a good person.
With that said, I think you need to be more open to others opinions, especially if they do not agree with yours. You have some very strong convictions and that is great, but so do others.
I realize some of the posts in this thread have seemed directed right at you and some of them have been worded in such a way that are not exactly flattering, but to be fair, you have said things in this post that have been put in similar ways. For instance:
Here's the UP big head thought.
Really, the mindset that snowmobiling isn't snowmobiling without the UP is...passé.
No outright bashing, but certainly not sugar coated statements.
I guess what I am saying here, and this applies to EVERYONE on the board. You certainly have a right to an opinion and you certainly have a right to express that opinion on this board, as long as it is within the bounds of the rules I have set up for the board. However, if you put your opinion out there, be ready for it to be disagreed with. That's just life in the good old USA.
-John
This is not meant as criticism towards you, in fact, my purpose is just the opposite. It is to try and ease your pain a bit. We have e mailed back and forth a bit and in those e mails I can see you are a good person.
With that said, I think you need to be more open to others opinions, especially if they do not agree with yours. You have some very strong convictions and that is great, but so do others.
I realize some of the posts in this thread have seemed directed right at you and some of them have been worded in such a way that are not exactly flattering, but to be fair, you have said things in this post that have been put in similar ways. For instance:
Here's the UP big head thought.
Really, the mindset that snowmobiling isn't snowmobiling without the UP is...passé.
No outright bashing, but certainly not sugar coated statements.
I guess what I am saying here, and this applies to EVERYONE on the board. You certainly have a right to an opinion and you certainly have a right to express that opinion on this board, as long as it is within the bounds of the rules I have set up for the board. However, if you put your opinion out there, be ready for it to be disagreed with. That's just life in the good old USA.
-John
AGAIN your opinion
And you may wanna look up the difference between "rip" and "ripe" when used if I need to look up "curt"
xsledder
Active member
The first one was a response to polarisrider1 and yes, your right, I could have skipped the first sentance.
The second one was not so much in response to polarisrider1. I was more or less using his statement that there are other areas to ride and for some people to get over the thought that someone might not ride in the UP over the fee. Agreed, could have been worded differently but then again I didn't become an engineer because of my mastery of the English language.
polarisrider1
New member
Mezz, I totally support your idea. Michigan is a fantastic state to be living in. We have it all here. Why do they come to MI to ride and not ride there own trails. We know why. Hiding behind the cost of a permit as an excuse is so laim, I agree. Maybe we should charge "out of state" riders more just to be able to use "our" resources. like they do with hunting and fishing liscenses.
Right because without the people from WI, IL, MN, OH, IA, ND, and several other midwest states those trails would be open and groomed as much? Tourism is all they have in the UP and if that goes so will the trails.
I would be carefull what you wish for in one of the highest unemployment states in the US.
Everyone knows that the UP is really just Northern WI. : )
I seriously hope you are just joking with this one Banks. If not, you have no clue about the UP and need to get one. The vast majority of the UP does not rely on tourism to survive. It is a part of the economy, but it is also in places like Chicago, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, etc...
The unemployment rate in most of the UP counties is historically less than most of the counties in and around the major metro areas of lower MI. MI's unemployment rate is so high because most of the population in the lower relied on the auto industry in one way or another. Houghton Counties unemployment rate has historically been less than that of the country for the past 15-20 years.
Are there areas in the UP that rely mainly upon tourism for their economy, yep, Copper Harbor is one of them. But take a look at the books of the businesses there and the winter tourism is a small fraction of what summer tourism revenue is. Many places in the harbor close for the winter and make their entire year's worth of income off of summer tourism. Same goes for most high tourism areas.
Like I say, I hope you were just joking if not, you need to come on down off of your high horse and get a huge clue.
-John
Yes, I was : ) I was going to say this also as a Joke.
If you didn't know your position it is tied for 46th worst.
Meaning basically 47. I guess it could be worse if MI was on the border of Mexico it most likely would be 30% unemployment or maybe GM and Ford would do better and you could get your vehicle costs down.
LOL, speaking for the trails in Wi Wayne, they are just as good as Mi. I don't go to the U.P. to trail ride, I have awesome trails right out my front door. See attached pic. My reason to go to the U.P.(not the lower) is obvious. How many people would go to Mi if they didn't have copious amounts of snow in the lake effect snow belts? Obviously in a low snow year, people flock to Michigan's LES belts to ride, why, because they have the snow, not because the trails are that much better, but because that is where the snow is.
I would never even THINK about trailering to the lower to go snowmobiling by the way.
Charge out of state riders more? Hmmm, that is a brilliant idea, why don't you take that idea up with a business who relys on out of state sledders to keep them going over the winter months? Hey, Mrs. Runningbear, how would your cabins do if Mi started charging more to out of state riders? Mosquito Inn, how would your business do? Krupp's Mini Mart, how about you? Matt at the Bluff, how many out of staters rent your apartments? I see a lot more out of state license plates sitting in Krupp's Resort parking lot than I do Mi plates.
You sure have a hard time seeing someone else's point of view don't you?
Attachments
Just for the sake of debate.
Here is a link for the UP unemployment rate. You can see the counties are all not doing very well.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/03/03/us/20090303_LEONHARDT.html
If you don't make the mortgage payment on the business in the winter times you never get to have the good summer months. The Lumber and Paper industry is going to **** in a hand basket. They closed printing places in the western UP. They need to do more mining and without people wanting them to do this to there recreation areas there really is no reason to be in the UP other than hunting, recreation and retirement. The UP isn't any different than Northern WI. You take away the two universities and it would get scary up there for sure.
Here is a link for the UP unemployment rate. You can see the counties are all not doing very well.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/03/03/us/20090303_LEONHARDT.html
If you don't make the mortgage payment on the business in the winter times you never get to have the good summer months. The Lumber and Paper industry is going to **** in a hand basket. They closed printing places in the western UP. They need to do more mining and without people wanting them to do this to there recreation areas there really is no reason to be in the UP other than hunting, recreation and retirement. The UP isn't any different than Northern WI. You take away the two universities and it would get scary up there for sure.
I totally agree, but now you are starting to make my point and hurt your's that for areas of the UP, tourism is a small part of the economy. I did state that there are areas where it is very critical to their economy.
Plus, MI is #47 (I think we were dead last at one point) because of the economy in lower MI, not because of the economy in the UP. The UP economy never booms and never really busts (since the end of the big mining years anyway). People do not move to the UP to make it big financially.
As one that has lived in IL, WI and the UP, I can say that for the state of WI as a whole, they benefit WAY more from having IL as a neighbor than the UP does from having WI as a neighbor. There are similarities between the UP and N. WI economy, but also some big differences.
-John
ridindirty800
Active member
Dsbasecamp
New member
polarisrider1
New member
And the same goes for you on the point of view. We have Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Pennsilvania and a large Kentucky group all who frequent the lower.
You don't see people moving to the UP to start new economic growth in fact I would say most everyone that grows up in the UP leaves the UP for another part of the country for work. Two main people who live in the UP. Retired folks and people who want to get away from the city living. Third would be the college students.
I did like the story of how the capital of MI was going to be in the UP during the mining days and I would say if they would open up mining again the UP would be booming for business.
I would say that WI - IL and the UP - WI is a very good comparison. If WI was hurting like MI I would say that the UP would be in a lot more trouble than if IL was in trouble and its effect on WI.
That is true but according to your previous post you would rather not have them come and keep our(MI) trails to yourself.
I agree on all your points banks. It has never been my contention that the UP was an economically strong area. My point was that it is a whole lot more diversified than your initial post stated. By what you have said in the subsequent posts, it seems like you agree.
Folks do not move to the UP to get financially rich, they move out for that. Folks move to the UP to richen their lives and leave the big financial worries to the big city folks.
-John
Folks do not move to the UP to get financially rich, they move out for that. Folks move to the UP to richen their lives and leave the big financial worries to the big city folks.
-John
Anytime a business raises its price it will lose some sales. The consumers who drop out are those that no longer see the value in buying the product at the new price...it is not a matter of absolute price, it is a matter of perceived value. Those consumers who fall out the bottom on a price advance most likely were not loyal to the brand anyway.
When I think of sledding in the UP I think of beautiful trails, lots of snow, friendly people, warm pasties, and cold beer (and strudel!). My enjoyment of the UP is when Mike from the Running Bear helps me get a sled started, Debbie from Krupp's bakes a birthday cake for my buddy from CA, and helping two guys from IL (Hi Ron & Ron) dig out a sled from a place where no old guy should go. It's beautiful trails, wonderful views, and coming back to a crock pot of chili and playing cribbage.
Can I do that in WI? Sure I can. But I choose the UP because of the overall consistent quality of the product. For me, that's worth $45 to do that for a season. I would hate to see the fee stay the same and see the quality of the product decline.
There are some people who thought that product was worth $35, but not $45, and they will drop out. But, if the product continues to have such high quality others will come in and try it.
When I think of sledding in the UP I think of beautiful trails, lots of snow, friendly people, warm pasties, and cold beer (and strudel!). My enjoyment of the UP is when Mike from the Running Bear helps me get a sled started, Debbie from Krupp's bakes a birthday cake for my buddy from CA, and helping two guys from IL (Hi Ron & Ron) dig out a sled from a place where no old guy should go. It's beautiful trails, wonderful views, and coming back to a crock pot of chili and playing cribbage.
Can I do that in WI? Sure I can. But I choose the UP because of the overall consistent quality of the product. For me, that's worth $45 to do that for a season. I would hate to see the fee stay the same and see the quality of the product decline.
There are some people who thought that product was worth $35, but not $45, and they will drop out. But, if the product continues to have such high quality others will come in and try it.
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