Build or buy... suggestions? Help?

[mattmillme]

Hello everyone, My name is Matt. I am a new guy from Indiana. I was told to drop in over here and talk to those of you who ride a lot in the UP by a member on another board. Forgive me as I do not know much about sleds yet. I have never really ridden sleds much, but have always been really interested in doing so. I have ridden a few and have some friends who had some fairly basic sleds growing up. Here in Indiana it's not all that often we get to use sleds... especially the really fun ones(mountain, extremely high power, ect.). I do have a fair amount of experience for living where I do and not ever owning a sled.

I have some friends who have started to get into snowmobiling and taking their sleds up into Michigan. I have interest in joining them. I would like to build a sled in all honesty that will do what I want for cheaper than I could buy one. I have no real brand preference. If I could buy a sled I would probably go with a Ski-Doo BackCountry X or a Polaris Switchback Pro X or the Arctic Cat XF 8000(any more aggressive crossover model). I want a sled that will be at least 60%+ off trail hard usage, 40ish on a groomed trail. I'm not looking to rip around corners like I'm on rails, more just blow away pretty much anything in a straight line and go through/up most anything I will encounter. I also want to take some sizeable jumps when playing, and somewhat comfortable in every situation. I am 6'4" and 300lbs. I also would like somewhere around 125~150ish hp range to start. I want to be able to somewhat inexpensively upgrade the engine preferably with both size and boost as well to get somewhere north of 200hp reliably and somewhat inexpensively in the future while running on pump premium gas if possible. 100LL is a very possible and viable option in my book as well and would like to be able to run the 100LL with a high boost setting. I don't really have a preference to 2 or 4 stroke, just to reliability with big power. I want to add easily adjustable shocks on whatever I build. I am completely unsure of what front suspension setup I would like. I think that I would like to run something like the rMotion rear suspension with the backcountry's 137x16x1.75... possibly up to a like 2.5. I want to be able to also modify this sled for some light use in the mountians fairly easily. I want to take a trip out west in the next few years to go play and see how I like it wherever I go(looking to possibly move west somewhere). When I take a trip to good snowmobiling country I want to be able to climb and play like a pretty much full on mountain sled, and I don't want to have to rent. Should I consider going to a longer track? I was also considering something like a 155x15x1.75~2.25 and using a Skinz ARC system for when I do find myself somewhere with the need for it. If I had the longer track I could easily swap tracks out whenever I go out west.

I want to have a sled that I can grow into and truly learn exactly what I want in my next sled. I want the versatility to try out some of everything, with more focus on boondocking and backcountry/mountain riding because I know that's what I will want to do, just unsure what/where exactly lol. My heart lies off the trail, but my friends are on the trail as of right now. Until I can convince them to get off trail more with me I have to play nice on trail to an extent.

I am an extremist in nature and a speed freak. I ride motorcycles, waverunners, race cars, pretty much anything with an engine I love and learn quickly. I tend to learn best when the learning curve is steep with something I am truly interested in. I have done well with my cars, bikes, and waverunners that are more than what most beginners should have. I like to learn to do things right with the correct techniques, so I focus on that when starting something new; especially when on something that can easily induce bad habits. I would LOVE to take my sled to like a Dan Adams Next Level Clinic, as suggested by my referrer, after I get my sled and spend a little bit of time on it. Not enough time to really do major damage by practicing bad habits, but enough to get more comfortable on my sled and feel a few different sleds in general to be able to better understand what the instructors would be talking about.

I am a competent auto mechanic and love to do custom modification work. Any suggestions you can give me on where to start looking for parts and what sled(s) I should be looking at to get to my goal is greatly appreciated. Do you think I would be better off just buying one of the sleds I mentioned? I had it suggested to me that I just go find a full on mountain sled in a 155ish track length and switch out track aggressiveness as needed. Would that be a better idea? Thank you for your time and help, if you have any questions to further help me out feel free to ask and I will answer them to the best of my knowledge/intentions. I look forward to hearing more from all of you and hopefully ride with some of you in the future.

 

[Modman440]

Hi matt names mark. Some call me mod man mod or mopar depends on what side u meet me. But anyways I have a rather healthy bit of experience in the aftermarket sled department and to be pretty blunt a full on custom sled like what you seem to want is no cheap adventure they can be very costly and break frequently if not done properly. I currently have 5 sleds and non of which are stock except my wife's. Now to get what u want which is basically something a 509 rider has will run big bucks the hp range is easily do-able without much cost but when you add in turbos your pocket book won't be to happy it's kinda a game u can take your chances with cheap stuff but then again why waste your time with junk. I Think that your best route would be to find someone in your grou ok of friends who has one of the sleds your interested in and ride them find that basic platform you like and go from there. Because most of the things you want are possible on those sleds and will accomplish antrying you will in counter up north and handle what your skill level will get into out west. A word of caution tho don't push your self I've seen many less experienced riders get hurt trying to do things they see in the movies and think I can do that. Take your time learn your sled and learn your limits. Pm me with any questions I may have some parts laying arouND you may be interested in depending on your decision..


MOD

 

[whitedust]

At your size and weight turbo a Viper & take it from there. Probably not going to convince buds to do more off trail instead of trails as completely different sleds & riding style. Today's sleds are purpose built so no need to reinvent the wheel do some shopping or attend up coming snow shows..everything you want is available in 16 line up. Check out all crossovers and you will find the one that is best for you. Agree with modman take it slow learn how to ride powder as much more ridng skill required than trail riding.

 

[mattmillme]

Thank you for the input guys. I was wanting to hopefully spend around 1/2 to possibly 2/3 of a new sled while getting the same level of performance, as well as I had heard from some various places that the more extreme off trail sleds were only mediocre off trail. I wasn't wanting a full on custom sled like you're probably thinking I meant. I was pretty much thinking a factory crossover sled with a bit longer track, lightening the sled up, and adding power after I get used to the sled/get training. If you all feel that a factory sled will do what I want without any real issue then I will happily look into them. Are there any recommendations for a little bit older sled I should specifically look at to best do what I want with my size? Easiest/least expensive to possibly mod in the future should I think I want it after time with the sled/training and time on other sleds? If I end up moving out west like I hope to in the future I would probably need a full on mountain sled, I would want to carry over as many mods as possible(staying with the same engine etc.), does that change your recommendation?

Most of the people I ride with have more trail based crossover sleds, and they will play a little off trail, but it's more just a little bit of easy ditch banging and easy to navigate access roads, or stuff that's within their line of sight from the trail that the want to check out. I am hoping, that since they will do some off trail stuff, that having a more capable sled to play around on and a rider that really wants to go way off the beaten path, will make them want to go play with me more.
Once again thanks for the help guys. I appreciate it.

 

[whitedust]

I see UP trail & powder as a crossover sled application then full on mountain sled probably an RMK 800 with boost if you move out west & in than case mod away as much as you want.....mods are available for sure. BUT you are a big guy and need big HP just to trail ride & ride powder here & there. Look at Cat & Yamaha turbo 4s first see if anything there that interests you for UP application puts you 175+ hpish out of box & in some case 200hp. Next is 2s 800 class take your choice but max hp there is out of box 150-160hp. As modman advised the more you mod the more likley you will have an off trail engine failure as 800 2s already high strung from OEMs. Walk before you run all stock sleds can be modified but try them stock first then decide what you want to improve later. For what you want to do I would buy new or noncurrent so you know what you have is solid.

 

[mjkaliszak]

I have a little experience... I would " buy ".... hands down. to chop up or part together a frankensled is only asking for trouble especially when it comes to reliability. Even with the BEST mods which require many years of experience just to sort out..... ( JIMO ) it would be a huge undertaking and a liability on the trails or boondocks........ I'm a 2's guy anyways.... so I will stay out of pereference ( 2's or 4's ) both have their merits.... I would try to pick up a non current ( last years ) or new. Your looking for a bigger sized sled .... due to your weight. The models available are vast especially when looking at all manu's offerings... May be best to stick with your budds for the 1st couple years. At least keep in mind what type of riding they do.

Just my .02 !

 

[mattmillme]

Thank you for your thoughts on the subject guys.

 

[G]

Welcome to the site. Always good to have new blood. Appreciate your wanting to go big but this is not the sport you want to go big right away. 20 years ago there were no purpose built sleds. Now there are many to choose from. In all colors. Why not purchase one of these ready built sleds - possibly a carryover - and learn the ropes a little. You will find that you will have to develop a few skills to effectively master the capabilities of these sleds. Then you will be able to identify the areas where you would like to improve. A couple of things to note - reliability and 200 plus hp do not go together. Modman is right that it can be done but it is very expensive to get there. Also if you start burning special gas it gets to be a pain to drag your own gas with you all the time. A stocker that runs on available fuel is more desirable. Been there done that. Also if you get all carried away building a frankensled there will be a very limited resale market. As in you will lose your butt. With your weight considered you should go and find yourself an 800 sized sled with no greater than a 1.75 151ish track. Good starting point. If you do any trail riding at all you don't want much bigger than a 1.75. I certainly wouldn't anyway. I have seen guys riding 90 on railway beds with 2 inch paddles shredding out the back. Good luck!

 

[alwaysright]

the one thing I would add as it sounds price will be a big factor and you like to work on things. Maybe take a look at a wrecked sled that needs to be rebuilt, check out copart or crashedtoys.com or whatever other insurance auction site is in your area. a lot of time the really wrecked stuff goes cheap enough to make it worth your while to rebuild it. Keep in mind you may need to spend 3-4k on parts as sometimes the only thing good left is the motor but might be an option to get a 7-8K sled for 5K-ish???

 

[G]

the one thing I would add as it sounds price will be a big factor and you like to work on things. Maybe take a look at a wrecked sled that needs to be rebuilt, check out copart or crashedtoys.com or whatever other insurance auction site is in your area. a lot of time the really wrecked stuff goes cheap enough to make it worth your while to rebuild it. Keep in mind you may need to spend 3-4k on parts as sometimes the only thing good left is the motor but might be an option to get a 7-8K sled for 5K-ish???

Don't know about copart but crashedtoys is no longer much of a bargain. When it first started there were deals to be had but not so much anymore. I bought several things from them for fix up purposes and by the time you paid the buyer's fee and allowed for travel and time it wasn't that great of a deal at all. Plus there was more damage than indicated on the pics. Parts are expensive even if your time is cheap.

 

[sledaholic]

since your newer to the sport dont buy a full mountain sled. start with a cross over as they are more stable for learning. the sleds now days work great stock you would be happy on a 8oo crossover as they have lots of power. the crossovers work great in the UP and out west until last year i rode a crossover in the UP and out west. If you find you want more length later rail extensions are an easy add on or on the 2012+ XF's you can put on a M skid. Being a tall guy i would recommend buying a rider forward sled they are more comfortable and have more room for a tall guy. I agree with modman mods on sleds are never cheap learn to ride the sled the conditions for the style of riding you what to do. then you will know better what mods you would really like. Have fun and maybe we will see you in the woods

 

[vipermax10]

I've got a Yamaha apex mountain for sale on here with a supercharger, way cheeper than building one.

 

[ezra]

since your newer to the sport dont buy a full mountain sled. start with a cross over as they are more stable for learning. the sleds now days work great stock you would be happy on a 8oo crossover as they have lots of power. the crossovers work great in the UP and out west until last year i rode a crossover in the UP and out west. If you find you want more length later rail extensions are an easy add on or on the 2012+ XF's you can put on a M skid. Being a tall guy i would recommend buying a rider forward sled they are more comfortable and have more room for a tall guy. I agree with modman mods on sleds are never cheap learn to ride the sled the conditions for the style of riding you what to do. then you will know better what mods you would really like. Have fun and maybe we will see you in the woods

so u think it is better to buy a short track get stuck way more than needed work harder to lay them over .then after all that buy a mountain sled when the main objective is to buy a sled to go boondocking ?
I cant tell u how much I wish I would not have wasted yrs and 10s of thousands on trying to make worthless crossovers do what they just cant do.

 

[mattmillme]

Appreciate your wanting to go big but this is not the sport you want to go big right away. 20 years ago there were no purpose built sleds. Now there are many to choose from. In all colors. Why not purchase one of these ready built sleds - possibly a carryover - and learn the ropes a little. You will find that you will have to develop a few skills to effectively master the capabilities of these sleds. Then you will be able to identify the areas where you would like to improve. A couple of things to note - reliability and 200 plus hp do not go together. Modman is right that it can be done but it is very expensive to get there. Also if you start burning special gas it gets to be a pain to drag your own gas with you all the time. A stocker that runs on available fuel is more desirable. Been there done that.

the one thing I would add as it sounds price will be a big factor and you like to work on things.

I typically in the past have done well on starting out on/with more powerful/bigger vehicles than I should have had. I don't mean just the typical 'I did it and was fine' either. I always am looking to better myself, and pretty much always know what I can and can't do and stay close to my limits. This natural 'knack' I have with vehicles, plus experience on a wide variety of them, is why I wanted to start easy on something big and hone my skills while rapidly growing into the sled.

Price is a factor, but not an overly huge one. I can make whatever happen fairly easily, but I don't have the money to just go throwing it away. I have a hard time going out and buying a new(or almost new) sled that will realistically only get out a handful of times each year, that will rapidly depreciate in value and become obsolete, that I may try to sell after a season or two due to it not suiting my desires. If I knew I would love and stick with the first sled I get for a long time I would be at a dealer ASAP signing papers. I don't really have an issue with taking fuel with me. It will be a bit of a pain yes, but for what it can give me and the amount/distance of riding whenever I do go out, it won't be too much of an issue(that is to say if I ever feel the need to step up to the 100LL after a turbo addition). I know big power causes reliability to tank. I just want the reliability to still be deemed acceptable in my eyes. What that standard of reliability looks like I can't exactly say either. I am drawn to Yamaha's 1049 engine in either a Yamaha or Arctic Cat sled. I love 4 strokes(double the pleasure, double the fun lol).

 

[mjkaliszak]

There is another option that comes to mind but after last years sled buying frenzy may not be viable. A budd / neighbor picked up a new but non current model ( Yami Apex ) it was several years old when he purchased it. He did acquire a screaming deal ... I mean several thousands off and had it shipped to MI from a dealer in NY ( Buffalo ) area. I don't know how he found it and haven't seen him since he moved out of our neighborhood to another, so I can't even ask. The 4's are generally up there in price , and things seem to be a little more compact in the motor compartment.

Good luck, on a final note .... in the sno - mo world.... it is hard to put a value on reliability... break down in the " fresh & deep " and things really get interesting. And / Or break down 40-50-60- or more miles from the trailer or base camp and your fun day turns into a " rescue Op ".
Just saying , not intending to be a smart arse... I have been in both situations and worse ( IE:sunk in a bog ).... I used to run & maintain some of my machines up to 10K in miles and sell them, but after a couple of decades of funding kids & the general mayhem we seem to attract during the season.... highly value " new tech " and the peace of mind knowing my ride is 100%.... there are enough risks out there to worry about. Even if I'm poor !

 

[whitedust]

I typically in the past have done well on starting out on/with more powerful/bigger vehicles than I should have had. I don't mean just the typical 'I did it and was fine' either. I always am looking to better myself, and pretty much always know what I can and can't do and stay close to my limits. This natural 'knack' I have with vehicles, plus experience on a wide variety of them, is why I wanted to start easy on something big and hone my skills while rapidly growing into the sled.

Price is a factor, but not an overly huge one. I can make whatever happen fairly easily, but I don't have the money to just go throwing it away. I have a hard time going out and buying a new(or almost new) sled that will realistically only get out a handful of times each year, that will rapidly depreciate in value and become obsolete, that I may try to sell after a season or two due to it not suiting my desires. If I knew I would love and stick with the first sled I get for a long time I would be at a dealer ASAP signing papers. I don't really have an issue with taking fuel with me. It will be a bit of a pain yes, but for what it can give me and the amount/distance of riding whenever I do go out, it won't be too much of an issue(that is to say if I ever feel the need to step up to the 100LL after a turbo addition). I know big power causes reliability to tank. I just want the reliability to still be deemed acceptable in my eyes. What that standard of reliability looks like I can't exactly say either. I am drawn to Yamaha's 1049 engine in either a Yamaha or Arctic Cat sled. I love 4 strokes(double the pleasure, double the fun lol).

I think you are on the correct path with Yamaha's 1049 engine in either a Yamaha or Arctic Cat sled then mod away with turbo or supercharger.

 

[ezra]

Hello everyone, My name is Matt.

I want a sled that will be at least 60%+ off trail hard usage, I also want to take some sizeable jumps when playing,
, with more focus on boondocking and backcountry/mountain riding because I know that's what I will want to do,

really whitedust right track a 4st with above text? only reason it is remotely a ok idea is Is he is big enough guy to mussel it around

 

[whitedust]

really whitedust right track a 4st with above text? only reason it is remotely a ok idea is Is he is big enough guy to mussel it around

He is huge guy that likes 4s wants 200 ponies ...what's he going to do? ...boost a 2s 800?...800s hardly hold together as is. Between AC & Yamaha plenty of long track versions to choose from that come stock with turbos. I see out west mountain riding as a separate issue if he even goes out there. You don't need a full blown mountain highmarker to dodge UP trees and trail ride. To me it is no small matter to go deep boondocking in the UP & come out the other side. Another thing that has been curious to me is the number of peeps lately that intend to ride UP powder & have no idea where to go. There will be little to no untracked powder available or lots of trespassing both not so good for snowmobiling....just saying I'm not getting the warm fuzzies about some of the stuff I read on here about off trail riding in the UP.

 

[ezra]

I dont care how big U are. if u are going to ride the trees in the UP a 4st is not going to cut it. U will have better luck with 3/4 ton in the western pines than the northern tight oak and maple with the sumac webbing.
every one thinks they need 200hp but the reality is 150 is more than enough for a guy his size from 0 to 6kfeet to keep track speed up .200hp is fun if u know how to use it but not if it is attached to 700lbs of nose weight.
bottom line there is NO all around sled. U have to be real with your self about what U will be using your sled for. and where U want it to shine the most. build it for that and just suffer through the rest. bottom line most sleds built in the last 9 yrs is light yrs ahead of what we were on 13yrs ago .but some are still pretty close to what we had 13 yrs ago and those will still rock the fresh groom

 

[whitedust]

I dont care how big U are. if u are going to ride the trees in the UP a 4st is not going to cut it. U will have better luck with 3/4 ton in the western pines than the northern tight oak and maple with the sumac webbing.
every one thinks they need 200hp but the reality is 150 is more than enough for a guy his size from 0 to 6kfeet to keep track speed up .200hp is fun if u know how to use it but not if it is attached to 700lbs of nose weight.
bottom line there is NO all around sled. U have to be real with your self about what U will be using your sled for. and where U want it to shine the most. build it for that and just suffer through the rest. bottom line most sleds built in the last 9 yrs is light yrs ahead of what we were on 13yrs ago .but some are still pretty close to what we had 13 yrs ago and those will still rock the fresh groom

Agree you have to be honest with yourself about the type or rider you are & go from there. No do it all sled from trail to highmarking and lots to choose from non current & new.