Conservation group buying a big chunk of land in the Keweenaw

[ICT Sledder]

wow you are really whipped up. i didn't know saying put your money where your mouth is can be so upsetting. your a stakeholder not a stockholder right.

and i cannot explain what certain conservation groups want or who they help.
yes paper companies and logging express their property rights differently.
i do not think social engineering should be done though taxes either.
snowmobiling is not going the way of the buggy whip anytime soon. take a breath and vote.

i seemed to have poked the bear

I’m not mad in the slightest. Just looking for you to tell me why the idea that conservation groups are generally an enemy of the snowmobiling community (and vice-versa) is so stupid of a take. Still waiting actually, and I’m not the one that started this back-and-forth, you are.

 

[snoluver1]

When i win the lottery, and i will dang it, my goal is to buy every chunk of land u.p. there that i can, and then put it all in the cfa program so we can all use it forever.

My thought is screw waiting for the numbers to hit. Lets start a non- profit and just get it done. There are huge tracts all over the u.p. for sale. And not just the u.p. I'm talking nation wide. Just imagine if every sled purchase, every atv, dirtbike, side x side, helmet, glove , goggles, trail sticker, registraition, etc, etc,...the buyer was asked to donate a dollar to the "National recreation land conservation" fund? We could raise millions, maybe billions? Fight back with the same tools they use against us. We could even come up with a clever name to get unsuspecting environmental crazy's to donate, thinking we are just another "lock-em-out" type of group! Lol

 

[jime]

glad your not mad

i guess i don't know what your point is any longer, you have worn me down.
conserve or don't conserve what ever you please is my point. i do not have the need to put my track on every sq. inch

 

[Admin]

snoluver1-

I am sorry, but one more post like that and I will have to ban you! Can't you see this topic is for useless banter, not real life solutions! Sheesh!

Actually, all joking aside. I think your idea is a great one (probably the biggest reason is I have had the same idea for several years now). It would be totally viable and in at least MI there is an end around for the liability. In the state of MI, you cannot sue a club that you are a member of. That is how the local snowmobile club gets around having high insurance for their races. You have to be a club member to race (pretty nominal fee and can be done the day of the race).

So I say go for it. I would actually undertake it myself, but I just have too much going on right now, but would be happy to help. The first steps would be to create a non-profit entity, 501c3. To do that, there is some paperwork to be sent to the feds, a set of by-laws needs to be drawn up and a board of directors or some kind of executive committee created. I have a feeling some of these small scale environmental groups just put their own family members or friends down as the BOD and then have an informal, annual "meeting" to pretend that they have spent time discussing the issues at hand extensively (required of all non-profits).

I have some even bigger ideas for large-scale motorized rec land aquisition, but honestly want to keep them out of the public for now, as I think it would be huge and also that such a motorized-friendly is not too far off from becoming a reality.

To be fair to the Northwoods Conservancy, they do allow two sections of our trail (Keweenaw Trails Services) system to go over their land. One section is right near Brockway Mountain Drive and the other is on the Gay to Lac La Belle trail (133). I believe they have come to understand that some amount of sharing can be a positive thing for everyone. I wish that could be said of all conservation groups.

-John

 

[snoluver1]

snoluver1-

I am sorry, but one more post like that and I will have to ban you! Can't you see this topic is for useless banter, not real life solutions! Sheesh!

Actually, all joking aside. I think your idea is a great one (probably the biggest reason is I have had the same idea for several years now). It would be totally viable and in at least MI there is an end around for the liability. In the state of MI, you cannot sue a club that you are a member of. That is how the local snowmobile club gets around having high insurance for their races. You have to be a club member to race (pretty nominal fee and can be done the day of the race).

So I say go for it. I would actually undertake it myself, but I just have too much going on right now, but would be happy to help. The first steps would be to create a non-profit entity, 501c3. To do that, there is some paperwork to be sent to the feds, a set of by-laws needs to be drawn up and a board of directors or some kind of executive committee created. I have a feeling some of these small scale environmental groups just put their own family members or friends down as the BOD and then have an informal, annual "meeting" to pretend that they have spent time discussing the issues at hand extensively (required of all non-profits).

I have some even bigger ideas for large-scale motorized rec land aquisition, but honestly want to keep them out of the public for now, as I think it would be huge and also that such a motorized-friendly is not too far off from becoming a reality.

To be fair to the Northwoods Conservancy, they do allow two sections of our trail (Keweenaw Trails Services) system to go over their land. One section is right near Brockway Mountain Drive and the other is on the Gay to Lac La Belle trail (133). I believe they have come to understand that some amount of sharing can be a positive thing for everyone. I wish that could be said of all conservation groups.

-John

Thanks for the info John. I've been reeling with ideas since I saw this thread. I seriously think it could be done. I am surprised none of the other groups like blue ribbon coalition, etc, haven't gone down this road yet? (Maybe they have and got blocked in one way or another?) I'm seriously going to look into it. If I make any headway I might reach out to pick your brain!

 

[snoluver1]

Anyone have any advice on which state is best to start a non-profit LLC? Apparently you can register basically anywhere. Some states have better tax advantages. I'm going to venture to guess my home state of IL is probably not the best state to register in? Ha ha!

 

[ragex2]

i think something like this is underway through MSA, started a few years ago but seems slow to take off with lots of red tape or something

 

[snobuilder]

my dollars are ready and waiting. just don't bloat and become teet suckers and this will be a completely viable solution.
just need some tax breaks Ala the other side has....think that is doable?

 

[duluthrider]

I think this is an great idea as well, but, we are way behind the curve here, In MN the conservation groups have been at this for many years already, a good deal of the land they have been slowly buying is already tax forfeit and not bringing in any $ to the coffers anyway. They have been paying more money for the land than hunters and other outdoor minded are willing to pay with the tax burden a private landowner has, 5 10 40 acres at a time., Much of this land was homesteaded in the past and the old American Dream was achieved there by hard working families turning the wilderness into the family farm to sustain their way of life.

The best way to do it, in my opinion, would be thru local and state clubs banding together pooling resources and forming a non profit. However we can't get the majority of people that enjoy our "activity" to even join a club, pay the nominal annual dues, even though they have 10's of thousands of dollars invested in the machines used including transport equipment. Not to mention the few that always make our "activity" look like an evil threat to mother earth and piss off everybody with their uncaring selfish actions, including law abiding landowners that enjoy snowmobiling.

The Nature groups get some cash donations, land donations, and even whole estates left to them.

Let's get this rolling and give till it hurts!

 

[loriwlrc]

good answer,but most won't even join a club! MSA should follow this action using members $'s

 

[snoluver1]

good answer,but most won't even join a club! MSA should follow this action using members $'s

MSA has raised 2.5 million for permanent easements in the last 14 years, acording to their website. That's a substantial and nobel effort, but not even a drop in the bucket as to what is needed.

We need to think on a much larger scale. We need every outdoor enthusiast in the country to donate small amounts repeatedly. Motorsports enthusiasts of every type, hunters, fishermen, moutainbikers, everybody! Small 1 or 2 buck donations at points of sale.

I'm doing a lot of research on this. It's gonna be a lot more complicated than just filling out the forms. There are substantial upfront costs just to get started. It would be a ton of work and a full time job/corporation. I have a lot more homework to do....but so far, I haven't found a single good reason NOT to do it!

 

[roundhouse]

Interesting thread.

A conservation purchase isn't the worst thing to happen to my way of thinking. It needs to be compared to the alternatives. If these blocks of land are instead subdivided and sold off in bites there will be more fences and gates and a larger change to the nature of land use and culture in the UP. When I was growing up there 40 years ago it was a more wide open, dare I say friendlier place. Much of the company owned waterfronts had not been sold off and you could wander almost anywhere you wanted. Now you have people blocking off beaches and other behaviors that are abhorrent to those who remember how it was.

The land is still cheap even by midwest standards. I'm far from wealthy but have bought 8 different small parcels in the western UP, 4 adjoining, 4 not with miles between them, totalling less than 30 acres put together. For reasons like others have mentioned I want my kids to have the option to enjoy the UP on their own terms as long as they care to. Owning is really the only way to guarantee yourself access in the future.

As for nature groups and trail groups there are some differences worth considering. When conservancy groups are out to preserve habitats it usually means fragile ecosystems and tracts of unbroken forest. Blocks of land such as square miles would be overkill in almost every case for trails. But this could be the big advantage of "trail conservancy" or whatever it would be called. You could make a lot of progress without needing nearly as big of a piggybank. Here is what I imagine as an effective scenario:
"Trail Trust" organizes and starts compiling a pot of money
A decent sized chunk of land becomes available in a trail suitable area
Trail Trust buys the land
Trail Trust surveys their purchase and lays out the best location for a trail across the land
Trail Trust builds the trail
Trail Trust writes a permanent 100' wide easement into the land deed based on their trail route then sells the land OR
Trail Trust surveys a 100' or 200' or 300' wide corridor based on their trail and resells the remainder as "everything north of the trail" and another as "everything south of the trail" for example
The proceeds go back into the pot of money and go towards the next land purchase
There should always be a rolling pot of money and properties being purchased, trails developed and sold, done right there should always be money to buy whatever land becomes available since money is recouped, taxes, land management expenses etc. are minimized

Local support could be forthcoming since land wouldn't be leaving the tax rolls and logging could be part of the process. In fact, for parcels with merchantable timber I would identify the ideal trail location then have loggers put through a road in that location as part of a timber sale just prior to finalizing the trail easement and reselling the bulk of the land. I wouldn't go crazy dividing lots but it is true you'll tend to get more per acre when selling smaller chunks. If you were to buy a full section follow the steps above then sell it as 4 or 8 blocks of land it shouldn't be hard to make some money with each sale and thereby increase the buying power/pot of money available.

Throwing some ideas out there, considering the needs of a Trail Trust vs. a Nature Conservancy shows some opportunity to help in the game of catch up in light of the different needs/aims. Once things are rolling it wouldn't be necessary to sell off all properties when good spots are identified for groomer sheds, off-trail play areas, race tracks etc.

 

[roundhouse]

First property for the Trail Trust?
https://up.craigslist.org/reo/d/300-acres-keweenaw-county/6763787841.html
*I am in no way affiliated with the seller etc. just a good example of the sort of property that could be bought, "trailed" and flipped, or trailed and and logged to replenish the fund.

 

[jime]

roundhouse,

awesome report. send an envelope when we are ready.

 

[ICT Sledder]

You can actually find land in the western UP in the $100/ac range. It usually has access/easement issues, but if a trail could be made to pass through its perfect.

The idea to “easement flip” land is an awesome one.

 

[snoluver1]

Great ideas! I like it!

 

[POLARISDAN]

i dont get your guys logic here..unless its for off trail..trails covers thousands of miles..so it makes no sense..you could buy a big piece for off trail..but then yous have to open it to all who donated..and youd hate it..

not crtitizizing..just not tracking the benefit

 

[snoluver1]

i dont get your guys logic here..unless its for off trail..trails covers thousands of miles..so it makes no sense..you could buy a big piece for off trail..but then yous have to open it to all who donated..and youd hate it..

not crtitizizing..just not tracking the benefit

I understand your sentiment and have similar questions as to the viability of a totally trail focused conservancy. My thought is, it's not only about trails. Its about access in general, for all enthusiasts.

I do like the idea of making certain properties go to work for the fund. I like the thought of flipping properties or logging, with permanent uses written into the deeds. At least to get the thing off the ground and running. Then, once the funds are rolling in, we could pick and choose what properties are worth keeping long term, as roundhouse mentioned.

 

[snoluver1]

I guess what my grand "vision" is;
a sort of privatization of what the BLM, USFS, DNR, etc, are aready doing? Just on a smaller, more localized level, so to speak.

 

[old abe]

I believe grub, or someone, stated earlier that your efforts, and funds, would be much better used to keep secure at least what we have access to now. We need to defend what we have. And perhaps, getting some more "new" trails established. I admire the interest, and enthusiasm, that this discussion has generated, but the goal is really, so very lofty. This has me wondering why we can't get more interested in joining, and supporting the clubs???