Effect of climate warming on Lake Superior

mezz

Well-known member
BS

This HOT DEBATE will continue on & on. The only thing I will say to this, Less Ice Cover, More LES!!!!:D:cool:-Mezz
 

blutooth

New member
LOL, some great reporting there. The main research cited is a 25 year study. Seems a little shortsighted given the life of the lake thus far.

"Once you begin talking about changing basic temperature, air temperature, water temperature, weather patterns, once that happens, you can’t reverse that quickly, it takes a long time," Buchsbaum says. "We’re now in the position where we're trying to adapt."

"Bad" climate change happens quickly, we really have to work long and hard for "Good" climate change.

At least the article doesn't discuss the cause of this short term warming trend....
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
Honestly, I got about 2/3rds of the way through and just stopped reading. It's the typical: "Take some unusual weather happenings in the past few years and blame climate change for it."

I wonder if this next winter, if the ice cover is like it was a few years ago (reaching nearly historical highs), the "researcher" will somehow tie that into climate change and global warming.

I hate to sound brash or sarcastic, but global warming and climate change is the goose that has laid the golden egg for a lot of climate type folks that would otherwise be doing something entirely different for their occupation. We went through this in the late 70's and early 80's with El Nino. Just about any unusual weather happening that occurred was blamed on El Nino. Quite a few scientists were given grants to make connections. Problem is, El Nino happens about every 3 years on average and the connections started dropping like flies and the money to make the studies dried up. So onto the next big thing: Global Warming/Climate Change. Difference is, many of the accusations being made with GW/CC will not be proven to be true or false for quite some time. So we will just have to wait it out.

I have only lived here for 12 years, but monitored the weather happenings very closely for about 10 years prior to that and have also studied weather records for Lake Superior and the UP for as long as they go back. What I have found is that there are periods of mild winters and periods of harsh winters. I suspect that we are just in a period or milder winters.

-John
 

matti

Active member
John, thanks for the insight. As someone who is a research scientist (not in atmospheric science, of course!), I know the power of chasing down research grants to study the topic du jour!
 

anonomoose

New member
Climate change is nothing new....it's been doing that since the beginning of time.

What is new are two things.

One is that man is becoming aware of the affects he has on his own world.

And the other is his new concern for what he MIGHT be doing to the climate.

There is no question climate is changing for the warmer...you don't have to be a scientist to see what is going on with the glaciers and other obvious indicators of a warming climate.

But is it cyclic, or is it a permanent change caused by man's uses of chemicals and other fundamental changes of our atmosphere which could result in bringing on changes outside of the more normal cyclic changes.

Lake Superior is in a low cycle for water depth. Winter before last, the Ontario side of the lake had record low amounts of snowfall all winter long.

Less water in the lake means that it will warm faster, and cool faster...it's a mass thing. I don't think that a cold winter or two, or a warm winter or two does much more to change the amount of water in the big lake. Likewise, even if the water warms significantly higher than normal does not by itself mean that the lake won't freeze right over if it gets cold enough in the winter.

I do know that along the shore of the big lake trees that had grown to be two hundred years old or more, were washed out by the roots because the lake levels were at record highs...back in the 60's and early 70's.

Now the beaches are expansive, and along the eastern shore of the lake, cottages that used to have water in front of them, are sitting high and dry well away from the shallow areas of the lake.

This exposes more shallow water to warming. And less mass to heat probably aids evaporation....so it could be a double whammy for the lake....as one aids and accelerates the other.
 

frnash

Active member
… One is that man is becoming aware of the affects [sic] he has on his own world. …
effects!
But is it cyclic, or is it a permanent change caused by man's uses of chemicals and other fundamental changes of our atmosphere which could result in bringing on changes outside of the more normal cyclic changes.
"It's the sun, stupid!"¹ And yes it is cyclic! Actually a combination of numerous cycles of different periods — including some very long periods.

¹ (Nothin' personal, just a little twist on Bill Clinton's "It's the economy, stupid!" from his unsuccessful 1992 campaign against George H. W. Bush.) :)
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
There is no question climate is changing for the warmer...you don't have to be a scientist to see what is going on with the glaciers and other obvious indicators of a warming climate.

Why would this be an obvious indicator that the climate is warming?

Glaciers do not cover the planet equally and the last ice age saw uneven glaciation. North America had enormous sheets of ice covering it, while Europe and Asia saw nearly none at the same altitudes/latitudes. There is also very little evidence of low altitude glaciation in the Southern Hemisphere.

It would stand to reason that if the Ice Age was caused by a simple cooling of the atmosphere, then the glaciation would have been pretty evenly distributed across the planets higher latitudes, not so pronounced over one continent.

Plus, while we are on the subject, the loss of ice in Greenland is confined mainly to the edges of the ice sheet. The interior areas are actually GAINING ice mass. Not at a rate that is equal to the loss at the edges, but not too far behind. We never hear about that fact do we? Wonder why.

Also, we hear a lot about the loss of ice in Antarctica. That is happening, but on the western side. The east Antarctic ice shelf is also gaining mass. Again, a fact that is not reported.

Yes, warmer temps will melt ice faster than cooler temps, but I disagree the change in ice mass in an ice sheet on our planet is automatically or solely connected to global temperatures.

By the way, what other "obvious" indicators are there that our planet is warming?

-John
 

Skylar

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well said John.

Global warming/climate change is a huge cash cow right now. My personal feeling is that it is cyclic. Good years, bad years, warm winter, cold winter, I have expierenced them all in my short 43 years of living on this planet. Did we have snowy winters when I was a kid, sure we did, but I can remember low snow winters also. I can remember getting a new toboggon one year for Christmas, and waiting for a couple of weeks after to be able to use it.

All I know for sure, is that people will say what ever it is they need to say, to keep that CW/GW scheme alive and well, and to add to their pocket book.
 
L

lenny

Guest
"There is no question climate is changing for the warmer...you don't have to be a scientist to see what is going on with the glaciers and other obvious indicators of a warming climate.

But is it cyclic, or is it a permanent change caused by man's uses of chemicals and other fundamental changes of our atmosphere which could result in bringing on changes outside of the more normal cyclic changes"


I love it when self proclaimed statements attempt to be factual. Yea, we have no evidence we are destroying the planet but we must be, just look at it! We better do something extreme now before it is wasted away! Lets impose extreme regulation on people that may be contributing to the PROBLEM,,,,see I said Problem so there must be one. Lets take serious action despite our understanding and limited records on global temps.

Wait,,,, I have a better idea,,,,,,Lets look at some physical evidence of indications that suggest patters of cyclic global temp variations. Are there any,,,,hmmmm. I wonder if there has even been an ice age,,,maybe one? It would be scary if there were multiple ones as that would would be hard core evidence especially since modern man didn't exist before the last. Friggin neanderthals must have been burning to much plastics,,,oh wait, plastic didnt exist, must have been coal,,,no? hmmmmm

So lets just ignore the obvious evidence and manufacture a plan that will contribute to economic instability,,,but hey,,,, makes us feel good like we are protecting da big blue ball from ourselves. Old mommy nature needs our help and if we are good and smart we can fix her all up.
 

favoritos

Well-known member
I sure hope we do not experience another Lake Superior ice over this winter caused by this terrible GW phenomenom. That was the first thing coming to mind reading the article. It seems hard to ignore the reality of the lake freezing.
 

anonomoose

New member
There were skeptics who doubted Magellan sailing around the world proving the earth was not flat too. Eventually most, BUT NOT ALL skeptics fell by the wayside.

Climate change, btw has more to do with global warming than how much snow falls in Yooper land on a given winter, how hot the weather is in Texas.

Measurements of average temperatures under extremely close tolerances, all over the globe pretty much measures an AVERAGE increasing temperature of our globe.

So we do know that it is increasing....it is not derived from retreating ice sheets...those are just indicators. Increasing ice sheets simply means that weather patterns have changed, and also doesn't prove that we are NOT warming up.

As the earth's population gets more mobile and you can stick your hand on the end of an exhaust pipe, you can deduce that we are contributing to this warming. We don't know how much this will contribute but surely a sane man can not ignore this contribution. Ozone deterioration is also pretty much a proved fact, though the exact cause may not be so clear. Surely the images from satellites, have landed in most everyones living room at some point...before or after re-runs of "happy-days".

Oceans are full of fish, and we can take as many as we want as the supply is endless....right?

The real questions are; can the earth take this increased heating without ill (Nash...I got it) effects?

Are we doing permanent damage?

Can we reverse this process or are we doomed to an ever increasing warming that will flood low lying areas and cause greater drought and resulting famine, and perhaps even bring on another ice age? (btw, I am hoping we get that flooding....it would alleviate some problems we have on either coast, if you get my drift (no pun intended).)

These are the things that make scientific folks nervous. Folks who are being paid to study this for a living and YES some are milking this out, but surely not the entire global scientific world, which are pretty united in this concern.

But the ants will scurry, hither and yon....no matter what. And like a flea on a dog...individually there is little we can do except to go to bed at night and be able to say that you did your part NOT to contribute to the warming, to the best of your ability.

Lenny, that means getting rid of that gas hog you drive! Get on that dusty trusty bike and drop a few...you know you need to do it anyway. (do as I say, and not as I do, eh?)
 

dcsnomo

Moderator
By the way, what other "obvious" indicators are there that our planet is warming?

-John

John, John, John...
When things get warm, s**t melts. What more do you want it to do?

I don't know why.

Observed temps are trending up on a long (last 80 yrs) basis and s**t continues to melt.

I call that a correlation.

Just sayin' :) (see now, I added both the just sayin' and the smiley so your reply Has to be nice!!)

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cmb-faq/anomalies.php

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/images/temp-anom-larg.jpg

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/ersst/ersst.1880.ann.png

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/ersst/ersst.1880.ann.png

http://akvoice.org/related-news/study-cites-slow-motion-threat-from-alaskas-thawing-permafrost
 

Hoosier

Well-known member
effects!"It's the sun, stupid!"¹ And yes it is cyclic! Actually a combination of numerous cycles of different periods — including some very long periods.

¹ (Nothin' personal, just a little twist on Bill Clinton's "It's the economy, stupid!" from his unsuccessful 1992 campaign against George H. W. Bush.) :)

Unsuccessful? I thought he won?
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
Well, no need for me to discuss things any further. All the true experts on everything have spoken. What would we ever do without the know-it-alls in the world?

Silly me, I'll crawl back into my cave and keep thinking the world is flat.

-John
 

nytro_rtx

Active member
Well, no need for me to discuss things any further. All the true experts on everything have spoken. What would we ever do without the know-it-alls in the world?

Silly me, I'll crawl back into my cave and keep thinking the world is flat.

-John

LOL Great response, not like you'd know anything about GW/CC. :)
 
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