Getting the front ski spring adjustment correct

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Polarice

New member
Okay, I'm trying to understand how to stop darting by using the right and left shock springs.

If I lift up the front of my sled and turn each of the nuts clockwise and put more tension on the springs; does this decrease ski pressure?

I thought that I understood that the above was the case even if it seems like the opposite in my mind.
 
S

snow_monkey

New member
Polarice said:
Okay, I'm trying to understand how to stop darting by using the right and left shock springs.

If I lift up the front of my sled and turn each of the nuts clockwise and put more tension on the springs; does this decrease ski pressure?

I thought that I understood that the above was the case even if it seems like the opposite in my mind.
Click to expand...

The more you compress the spring you will get more ski pressure!
 
D

doo_dr

New member
Don't get twisted around

Front shock spring tension does just that "Set tension" Shock tension only determines the amount of force through the complete shock stroke. It is only a portion of the formula for handling and ski pressure. limiter strap setting and "ride in height" are also parts of the equation. Then, the front skid frame shock preload for sled transition/transfer. Think of your sled as a teeter tottor with big marsh mallows under each end. Your weight( sitting on one marsh mallow) and the height of the pivot point determine how much force is on the skis (other MM). Setting shock tension would be like drying the MM out to make it stiffer. Sorry for the crude comparison but it is really the simplest way to describe how they entire sled suspension works. Steering pressure, Darting, Tracking, Turning force, Pushing are from your adjustments and outside forces like skis, runners, snow conditions,etc...
 
srt20

srt20

Active member
Dont touch your ski springs for darting. Shim the skis, or use dually carbides. Dually carbides arent the best for aggressive riding though.

Unless you are a jumper, the best adjustment for your ski springs is for lowering COG. You dont get enough ski pressure from the ski springs, and all you end up doing is making the sled more tippy.

You have an IQ right?
 
X

xcsp

Member
Polarice said:
It seems like I there has been so many different answers on this issue. My next step is the shims!
Click to expand...

As I mentioned elsewhere, shimming the skis makes a big difference!

Before putting the shims in place, I had tried no preload on the front shocks, didn't help, then tried with increased amounts of preload on those shocks, not much help in the "push" I was trying to get rid of but the ride got stiff.

I now have the shims, decreased the preload and the sled turns very well and no darting, using Bergstrom Triplepoint 6" carbides, 96 studs in the center of the track.
 
D

doomsman

New member
Cranking down on the front springs will have your teeth
chattering on every wind ripple in the snow when you
crank it out on the lake.
Spring soft shock hard.
 
S

snow_monkey

New member
Look at an angle at your carbides and see how they are positioned when the sled is sitting on a flat surface. Certain models have a reputation of needing shims, my 2002 indy skis need shims bad.
 
H

hednup2

Member
Dooly's

If your sled came with dual carbides my advice stick with em, went from dual carbides to Bergstroms "Good but Ugly" single's, shims, ski savers, everything, terrible is all I can say, darting issues you wouldn't believe, everything the website said carbides were to eliminate did just the opposite on my sleds, Tightened the shock preload considerably "Sled was all over the trail" would come out of 1 rut then jump into another didn't want to go over 30 mph's wasn't safe. Loosened the spring preload all the way, was alittle better but wasn't safe over 40, tried loosening limiter strap, only adjustment was for a more aggressive ride, took out shims, no change, did some checking the ski toe in-out was toed in 1 inch when ski should be toed out 1/8 -3/8's of an inch, corrected that problem, now sled follows in my wifes rut "we have matching sleds" takes alot of effort to turn handelbars to get out of her rut, still zig zag's down the trail but not as bad as before. Our sledding friend has same sled as ours with dual carbides, no issues at all. Come to realize what he said is truth "because I changed from dual's to single's, gonna put shims back in and ride till season ends next year will have dual's back on. At one frustrated point I was thinking about putting the old carbides back on, they were wore done to nothing but would stop the darting as I didn't have this problem last year but I already threw them out.
 
X

xcsp

Member
hednup2, with the ski toe "in" being what it was and not to specs of being toed "out" probably caused much of the problem, not so much the dual vs. single carbide runners.

Give Scott at Bergstroms a call and discuss what is happening, he'll help you out.

My advice to anyone would start with the correct ski alignment, shim the skis as needed, and then go from there.
 
H

hednup2

Member
No disrespect for Bergstroms just didn't work for me

Sorry but even after all the adjustments the sled is still "Unexceptable" for riding 2 me, I didn't try a few things and abort, I really gave an effort to pull this off cuz I "wanted" these to work, after reading all of his website "not just parts" I believed this product was something I should look into. My buddies think I went over and above the effort trying to make it work, I'm sure there's other things that I can try but I want to enjoy sledding, The last straw was last weekend they said "We'll wait for you at the stop signs were not used to going this slow" and that really hurt cuz I ride as hot as the rest of em can. I've heard a few guys have got their money refunded but I'm not gonna go that route, I took the chance and lost maybe I'll find someone who wants to buy 2 used sets of carbides. It could be the sled, Polaris's idea of counter darting issues by making the accutrac ski's and dual carbides, I've come to realize these sleds we bought in 2004 were not a good choice of an investment, only made 03's and 04's now they don't make em anymore that should say something for itself.
 
B

bigred_tr

New member
front springs

Though the front springs need to be adjusted for ski pressure...and yes the more compacted the spring the moe downward presure... Most of your ski pressure is done with the limiter strap and maybe other rack adjustments. The more you tighen the limiter strap the more downward ski pressure. but Get a book on your sled and should guide you right thru whatever adjustments you need to know. As for carbides, been riding for 30 years + and went to Dualies and lov them..never go back to single.

BR
 
A

anonomoose

New member
There is NOTHING that can take the enjoyment out of sledding like a sled that darts excessively.

Here is what I do to close the gap on darting.

First, I take the time to align the skis....and this means doing it right with straight edges which are ALIGNED with the skegs and NOT the ski edges. For the skis to track correctly that part that steers you is not the edge of the ski but that part that sticks down below the ski.

I don't toe the ski out much....but toe in...is not acceptable and will cause darting....so some outward toeing is good remembering that a bunch isn't. I try to stay within 1/2 inch REGARDLESS of what the book says.

Next I find that if I am trying to use the sled off trail, I want extreme loose limit straps...I have even run longer strap bolts to accomplish this or once even put new holes in the straps themselves, to get the skid to rock back onto the track where I needed it to go. This allows me to literally lift the skis right off the snowpack and you can then "steer" by transferring your body weight to one side or the other of the sled causing the sled to tilt and go in the direction you are listing....If you are all trail...then you want more ski pressure not less. That means a bit more shock spring (compress the front shocks) which limits the springs compression ability. More ski pressure will plant the skis more firmly and this is particularly important when you go into a hard corner. I find Guys that complain that the skis lift on them often have the ski pressure too light.

Then THE most miss -understood adjustment is in the skid itself. There you have several adjustments to balance YOUR individual weight and weight transfer. Most sleds "couple" transfer so that any rocking back of the sled such as when you hit the gas and the sled wants to rock backward, can be limited by the limit straps transfers the weight uniformally over the whole length of the skid. Un-coupled suspensions don't transfer this weight intentionally and allows the weight to completely transfer from the front of the sled including the skis all the way back to the rear of the track where flotation is best...as in powder riding. The more you crank on the front spring the more the sled will want to rock...and conversely, the more you crank on the back spring the less it will allow the rocking chair motion. However, you need to be sure that the compression of the suspension is right and those who are heavy in the saddle, need to tighten both the front and the back to achieve this right amount of sag....which is where the sled wants to sit without motion and with full weight of rider, passenger AND GEAR. Once you get this right, adjustment to limit or improve the front to rear rocking motion is a trial and error process.

Most sled manuals will walk you thru this pretty well...at least those that I have had my hands on...and that would be all the makers so far.

One final thing here that needs to be mentioned. The skis are very important in darting. Type of skeg, length of carbides, and then amount of "forward" pressure on the skis will all make a difference on how the sled darts. Some skis will respond well to shims under the back portion of the ski mounts and some won't. Some skis designs will work well with twin keel designed carbides and some won't. Some skis are just terrible in design...and though you can usually improve the darting, I find that if I want to get it all gone, I need to just junk the skis for that sled.

BTW, I think Polaris skis in that age range are some of the worst in the business...and if you can swap out these skis for a day with something else, you might find THAT is one of your biggest problems. Why Polaris ignores this is a puzzle to me...but I am not a fan of Polaris skis designs based upon my history of figuring out what works and what doesn't.

Hope this helps....good luck...and don't give up...eventually you will get it figured out.
 
S

sledder10

New member
anonomoose said:
There is NOTHING that can take the enjoyment out of sledding like a sled that darts excessively.

Here is what I do to close the gap on darting.

First, I take the time to align the skis....and this means doing it right with straight edges which are ALIGNED with the skegs and NOT the ski edges. For the skis to track correctly that part that steers you is not the edge of the ski but that part that sticks down below the ski.

I don't toe the ski out much....but toe in...is not acceptable and will cause darting....so some outward toeing is good remembering that a bunch isn't. I try to stay within 1/2 inch REGARDLESS of what the book says.

Next I find that if I am trying to use the sled off trail, I want extreme loose limit straps...I have even run longer strap bolts to accomplish this or once even put new holes in the straps themselves, to get the skid to rock back onto the track where I needed it to go. This allows me to literally lift the skis right off the snowpack and you can then "steer" by transferring your body weight to one side or the other of the sled causing the sled to tilt and go in the direction you are listing....If you are all trail...then you want more ski pressure not less. That means a bit more shock spring (compress the front shocks) which limits the springs compression ability. More ski pressure will plant the skis more firmly and this is particularly important when you go into a hard corner. I find Guys that complain that the skis lift on them often have the ski pressure too light.

Then THE most miss -understood adjustment is in the skid itself. There you have several adjustments to balance YOUR individual weight and weight transfer. Most sleds "couple" transfer so that any rocking back of the sled such as when you hit the gas and the sled wants to rock backward, can be limited by the limit straps transfers the weight uniformally over the whole length of the skid. Un-coupled suspensions don't transfer this weight intentionally and allows the weight to completely transfer from the front of the sled including the skis all the way back to the rear of the track where flotation is best...as in powder riding. The more you crank on the front spring the more the sled will want to rock...and conversely, the more you crank on the back spring the less it will allow the rocking chair motion. However, you need to be sure that the compression of the suspension is right and those who are heavy in the saddle, need to tighten both the front and the back to achieve this right amount of sag....which is where the sled wants to sit without motion and with full weight of rider, passenger AND GEAR. Once you get this right, adjustment to limit or improve the front to rear rocking motion is a trial and error process.

Most sled manuals will walk you thru this pretty well...at least those that I have had my hands on...and that would be all the makers so far.

One final thing here that needs to be mentioned. The skis are very important in darting. Type of skeg, length of carbides, and then amount of "forward" pressure on the skis will all make a difference on how the sled darts. Some skis will respond well to shims under the back portion of the ski mounts and some won't. Some skis designs will work well with twin keel designed carbides and some won't. Some skis are just terrible in design...and though you can usually improve the darting, I find that if I want to get it all gone, I need to just junk the skis for that sled.

BTW, I think Polaris skis in that age range are some of the worst in the business...and if you can swap out these skis for a day with something else, you might find THAT is one of your biggest problems. Why Polaris ignores this is a puzzle to me...but I am not a fan of Polaris skis designs based upon my history of figuring out what works and what doesn't.

Hope this helps....good luck...and don't give up...eventually you will get it figured out.
Click to expand...

Good post!
 
P

Polarice

New member
Anonomoose, I thank you for the reply. It makes a lot of sense, I think I'll read it again.

I finally rode the trails with the new Cobra track. I almost completely eliminated any darting issues.

I still want to tweek the suspension out a little bit but for the most part I can't believe the difference that this track made.
 
W

whitedust

Well-known member
hednup2 said:
Sorry but even after all the adjustments the sled is still "Unexceptable" for riding 2 me, I didn't try a few things and abort, I really gave an effort to pull this off cuz I "wanted" these to work, after reading all of his website "not just parts" I believed this product was something I should look into. My buddies think I went over and above the effort trying to make it work, I'm sure there's other things that I can try but I want to enjoy sledding, The last straw was last weekend they said "We'll wait for you at the stop signs were not used to going this slow" and that really hurt cuz I ride as hot as the rest of em can. I've heard a few guys have got their money refunded but I'm not gonna go that route, I took the chance and lost maybe I'll find someone who wants to buy 2 used sets of carbides. It could be the sled, Polaris's idea of counter darting issues by making the accutrac ski's and dual carbides, I've come to realize these sleds we bought in 2004 were not a good choice of an investment, only made 03's and 04's now they don't make em anymore that should say something for itself.
Click to expand...

I feel for ya I have seen that era Poo all over the the trail at 35 mph & really seems dangerous from what I have seen & grim faces on riders. I always thought I could tune the dart out of those sleds with Bergstroms triples & shims but may be the skis. Also had to be discouraging for them when I go by & speed up to 75 mph & no handing issues with my Attak while they have death grip at 35mph. Those sleds can't handle that bad there must be a set up & ski combo that works?
 
S

sledder10

New member
Polarice said:
Anonomoose, I thank you for the reply. It makes a lot of sense, I think I'll read it again.

I finally rode the trails with the new Cobra track. I almost completely eliminated any darting issues.

I still want to tweek the suspension out a little bit but for the most part I can't believe the difference that this track made.
Click to expand...

I was going to mention a better track can also help with stability and reduce darting depending on conditions of course.
 
P

Polarice

New member
whitedust said:
I feel for ya I have seen that era Poo all over the the trail at 35 mph & really seems dangerous from what I have seen & grim faces on riders. I always thought I could tune the dart out of those sleds with Bergstroms triples & shims but may be the skis. Also had to be discouraging for them when I go by & speed up to 75 mph & no handing issues with my Attak while they have death grip at 35mph. Those sleds can't handle that bad there must be a set up & ski combo that works?
Click to expand...

The Cobra track basically eliminated darting. There is still a little but 90% is gone.

This could be a fluke. I just kept everything the way it was so I could tweek it out as needed as a starting point. I think I may give it a bit more ski pressure for a tad bit of inside ski lift but that's it.

This track transformed my sled.
 
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