Groomer or Grooming issue north of Mosquito

[whitedust]

Boo hoo deep lug tracks wreak havoc on groomed trails! I mean really who cares? I sure don’t. If you want to ride big miles on a groomed trail on a powder or mountain sled it sucks to be you. Is it possible yes but a terrible riding sled over a trail sled on groomed trails. On Wi hard pak bring extra hyfax you’re going to need it. We are all snowmobilers and we should never turn on our snomo buddies because of the type of sled they ride. Respect our trails , other riders and landowners and all will be fine. Disrespect our trails , private landowners and other riders and no good will come of it. The OP was just trying to notify everyone of an area of inadequate grooming area at a certain time. Take it as a well intended post to improve grooming conditions for everyone no harm was intended. Ride on everyone and enjoy sleddin.

 

[Skylar]

Yeah, well, euphoric1, the DNR set up the different grooming areas/districts many years back along with MISCA. Snowmobile clubs, and Tourism Councils within their area, Districts, do the grooming with DNR funds, and donations. I don't want to spoil things for you, however the trail from Greenland to Houghton, is one of the very most traveled, high snowmobile traffic trails in the UP period. And this is for many reasons. This area is blessed with LES snows. That provides for much of the continuous snowfall necessary for a "dependable" place to go to to ride whatever. Trail ride, off trail, or both. The "off trail sled" segment has gotten really huge in numbers as of lately. Mountain, off trail "deep" lug tracks require more snow than do normal trail sleds. The deep lug tracks can, and I said CAN, totally DESTROY a "perfectly groomed" trail in absolutely no time with reckless, abusive, unconcerned riding. Some people ride with respect of the trail conditions, and it makes a big difference with deep lug tracks. I know that those last sentences are going to start a angry fire storm with some, but it is TRUE FACT! I have witnessed it so many times, over many years. Not by all riders, but it takes only a very few to do so. The increased numbers of the deep lug track, off trail sleds in the last 10 years has just made it much worse. This even as the grooming equipment continues to improve. I know of many Grooming Operators, who absolutely agree with all of what I have stuck my neck out, and said here. Many are just plain frustrated, such as all the time they spend grooming. Anyone who argues that being not true is in Fantasy Land. The longer the fresh "GROOM" gets to "SET UP", the much better it holds its groom condition. So there are many issues that effect trail conditions. High, very high traffic, the time of day grooming, groom set up time, and weather etc. These all have a big bearring on the "trail condition". I will say this, the people of the Superior Snowmobile Club, are the utmost dedicated to, and very proud of their grooming duties. As other clubs, groups are also, but some not as much as others. I will now go find a safe place to hide, as some will want to crucify me for this post!. No harm intended, and nothing personal. Go ride, enjoy, and be safe! With all that, I say SO WHAT, eh!

Some great points being made here. Question for you though, I've been riding the Nichols trail from Mass City to Houghton, and north, for 30 years now, looooong before deep lugged mountain sleds were thought of. I wonder why the trails were just as bumpy back then?

 

[old abe]

I own both types of sleds. An average day on the trails for me is anywhere from 75-150 miles riding across multiple different clubs trails that awesome volunteers chose to groom. Now, An average day on my mountain sled in the UP consists of me parking as close as I can to my intended riding terrain, and riding MAX 5 miles of marked trails before dipping off into the trees for the day. After I’m done pulling my sled out all day long I ride those same trails back to the truck to load up. Tell me how it makes sense to pay an additional fee to ride my long track down the bill nichols for a few miles? I have a hard time justifying the $52 trail pass as it is, but it’s on my sled!

Yes you do, and I know many others who do also. Way to go with respect for the trails, the trail groomer operators, and other riders! To that I say Bravo! However, sadly, the most don't. Also, it seems now more so than not, with the cost of high $$$$$ sleds, many won't, or can't have multiple rides to do as you. Very understandable, and some just have to have the latest, greatest, and the best, eh! So when they plan a ride trip with their trail riding buds, truthfully speaking, the UP is one of the best places, areas to go to ride with the deep lug sleds. They ride the mountains, and then stay in the snow belt areas of the midwest to ride trails. I've come to know many as such, very well. Again, I commend you indy for your respect to others, and to all the other riders like you! Carry on, ride, enjoy, and always be safe!

 

[Skylar]

Was trying to lighten the mood… 100% identical driving characteristics, a deep lug long track will indeed cause more damage to a trail. I think we can all agree on that to a point. But to say they are the reasons trails are bumpy is not a whole lot different than saying guns kill people. Trails deteriorate from excess traffic, weather, and people who drive like jack wagons. The people who drive like jack wagons could be on a 2012 Skidoo 800 XRS, a 1987 Polaris Indy Trail, a 2018 Yamaha Sidewinder, or a 2019 Arctic Cat M8000 153x3. Point is, it does not matter what you drive, you can mindfully drive ANY sled and cause little to no deterioration to a trail. I have followed older sleds with less than <1” lug tracks spinning all over the friggin place, all while wiping out every last corner, and taking it down to the dirt before and after every stop sign. Does that mean we should ban those too? Kind of disappointed with some of the thought processes here…

You have to understand Indy, these type of people NEED to place the blame on somebody. They don't even think about the FACT that the trails up there were bumpy long before the deep lug track was invented. I could destroy a trail with my Apex also, if I chose to do so.

Here is the answer to the original posters question about how the same trail was groomed so differently, Superior club tries to groom from Twin to Toivola twice a day. One time being from around midnight to 6 am, they use to try it earlier, say 10 pm, but the bar flies on trail sleds headed from Twin back up to Houghton, wasn't allowing enough time for the trail to set up, so they start later now. The Keweenaw club, has not been doing very many night runs so far this season from Houghton to Toivola. So, the trail has zero time to set up. Stretch counted 700 sleds on his 7 hour route last week, from Houghton to Toivola and back. 700! Grooming during the day, up there in that area, on a weekend, or holiday week, is a total waste of time and money.

 

[euphoric1]

You have to understand Indy, these type of people NEED to place the blame on somebody. They don't even think about the FACT that the trails up there were bumpy long before the deep lug track was invented. I could destroy a trail with my Apex also, if I chose to do so.

Here is the answer to the original posters question about how the same trail was groomed so differently, Superior club tries to groom from Twin to Toivola twice a day. One time being from around midnight to 6 am, they use to try it earlier, say 10 pm, but the bar flies on trail sleds headed from Twin back up to Houghton, wasn't allowing enough time for the trail to set up, so they start later now. The Keweenaw club, has not been doing very many night runs so far this season from Houghton to Toivola. So, the trail has zero time to set up. Stretch counted 700 sleds on his 7 hour route last week, from Houghton to Toivola and back. 700! Grooming during the day, up there in that area, on a weekend, or holiday week, is a total waste of time and money.

Skylar, thank you for that! it sounds like a grooming timing and traffic issue which makes sense and I agree daytime grooming makes no sense especially on high traffic or just weekends in general. I'm sorry this post turned into finger pointing and putting blame on riders and based on what type of sled they own. We all know damage can be inflicted by all sorts of riders on all sorts of sleds but this clearly is not the case and again I apologize that this turned into what it did. Thank you again Skylar for your explanation, lack of nighttime grooming makes perfect sense in conjuction with all the traffic. I had assumed one club went up to road and another after and the timing is probably the biggest issue, no time for it to set up and harden.

 

[old abe]

You have to understand Indy, these type of people NEED to place the blame on somebody. They don't even think about the FACT that the trails up there were bumpy long before the deep lug track was invented. I could destroy a trail with my Apex also, if I chose to do so.

Here is the answer to the original posters question about how the same trail was groomed so differently, Superior club tries to groom from Twin to Toivola twice a day. One time being from around midnight to 6 am, they use to try it earlier, say 10 pm, but the bar flies on trail sleds headed from Twin back up to Houghton, wasn't allowing enough time for the trail to set up, so they start later now. The Keweenaw club, has not been doing very many night runs so far this season from Houghton to Toivola. So, the trail has zero time to set up. Stretch counted 700 sleds on his 7 hour route last week, from Houghton to Toivola and back. 700! Grooming during the day, up there in that area, on a weekend, or holiday week, is a total waste of time and money.

Need, Skylar? I'm not out to PLACE BLAME. Just stating how it is, like it or not. You perfectly described what goes on from Twin Lakes to Houghton.

 

[snobuilder]

I only complain when the trench is sideways across the trail....as the off trail guys launch up the adjacent sidehill just off the trail. assholes.

 

[goofy600]

I only complain when the trench is sideways across the trail....as the off trail guys launch up the adjacent sidehill just off the trail. assholes.

I agree, thing I have noticed about that is it is not really in the deep snow areas, I’ve run into this more around places like iron River mi area than in the kee

 

[old abe]

Some great points being made here. Question for you though, I've been riding the Nichols trail from Mass City to Houghton, and north, for 30 years now, looooong before deep lugged mountain sleds were thought of. I wonder why the trails were just as bumpy back then?

Ahhhhh, wonder, Skylar? I don't think so, as you know all the reasons for those conditions, and why. So why not just say so? Perhaps it was groomer equipment, operators, and a lot fewer of both of them. And then there's the funding thing, eh! Perhaps you go back and read over my post #20? I didn't single out anything, or anyone for that matter. My first time to the UP was 1979. We came to the snow belt, LES? Trail conditions? Yeah, well, trail conditions, what iwas that eh! It is what it is, I stated that, and I'll stand by that. Ride what ever, enjoy, be safe!

 

[timo]

if only I had a nickel for every post on why trail conditions are what they are in the last 20 years on this site,,, I'd have a lot of nickels.
it's not rocket science people
the horse is dead.

 

[dfattack]

if only I had a nickel for every post on why trail conditions are what they are in the last 20 years on this site,,, I'd have a lot of nickels.
it's not rocket science people
the horse is dead.

so true

 

[Skylar]

I only complain when the trench is sideways across the trail....as the off trail guys launch up the adjacent sidehill just off the trail. assholes.

Agreed

 

[pclark]

The glass is either half full or half empty for each individual. For me, its half full, but only because I worked hard to set myself up for the day I will retire and that will be soon. When I snowmobile I honestly hate rough trails but I also love that I can be able to just have a sled and enjoy this sport, lots of great places to go, lots of great people that I have met, and its quite different from a lot of sports.

When I mention that we snowmobile most people say "I would love to try that".

To each their own, I don't boondock (not sure that is even the right description anymore?) but wouldn't mind trying it sometime. There are &&&holes in every sport but there are also good and respectable people. I think most reside on this website in my opinion.

Looking forward to 2022, because the last 2 years have been, "well, you know". So far so good, met a nice gentleman today that is a fellow John Dee follower (Coach, great taking with you today!)

 

[1fujifilm]

Some great points being made here. Question for you though, I've been riding the Nichols trail from Mass City to Houghton, and north, for 30 years now, looooong before deep lugged mountain sleds were thought of. I wonder why the trails were just as bumpy back then?

It was our 1993 Polaris Indy 500 suspension.."Extra-2", a whole 2 inches of suspension, plus we rode 60MPH back then.

Today, I'm not happy unless I can maintain 85+ on all grades so I don't have to make Polaris Dan and Slim Cake wait for me at every stop sign.

Bear

 

[old abe]

It was our 1993 Polaris Indy 500 suspension.."Extra-2", a whole 2 inches of suspension, plus we rode 60MPH back then.

Today, I'm not happy unless I can maintain 85+ on all grades so I don't have to make Polaris Dan and Slim Cake wait for me at every stop sign.

Bear

Much better Grooming equipment used today, and more Groomers too, eh!

 

[favoritos]

It's interesting to discuss trail conditions. I always consider the topic to be subjective and things can change in a hurry.
Rode back and forth, up and down, or whatever direction we could this past week. The trail section mentioned in the title was the best grooming we encountered.
Seems like it is easy to talk about junk conditions, but the fantastic stuff doesn't get mentioned.
I'd like to put out a kudos to the grooming team. The trails were fantastic and worth mentioning.

 

[old abe]

It's interesting to discuss trail conditions. I always consider the topic to be subjective and things can change in a hurry.
Rode back and forth, up and down, or whatever direction we could this past week. The trail section mentioned in the title was the best grooming we encountered.
Seems like it is easy to talk about junk conditions, but the fantastic stuff doesn't get mentioned.
I'd like to put out a kudos to the grooming team. The trails were fantastic and worth mentioning.

Big Time X2, eh!

 

[goofy600]

It's interesting to discuss trail conditions. I always consider the topic to be subjective and things can change in a hurry.
Rode back and forth, up and down, or whatever direction we could this past week. The trail section mentioned in the title was the best grooming we encountered.
Seems like it is easy to talk about junk conditions, but the fantastic stuff doesn't get mentioned.
I'd like to put out a kudos to the grooming team. The trails were fantastic and worth mentioning.

It’s all about timing the OP was very early season and now the club has had a chance to get it fixed. No different than comparing weekday and weekend conditions. With that being said clubs can learn from other clubs that may improve there conditions sooner or better yet never have them in the first place. Living up north the last 2 winters and seeing other areas more I have seen what I think are some great ideas that I have shared with my club. Now if a club chooses to use said ideas is a whole different thing. One thing I noticed this year was some of the Wisconsin clubs were able to get out in November and pan and pack trails 2-3 weeks before trails opened which I’m sure really helped in setting up there base. Then all the new snow had something flat to land on. Not sure if Michigan clubs can even do that and get out before December 1 date, but I’m sure to would have helped to set them up.

 

[bonnevier]

It was our 1993 Polaris Indy 500 suspension.."Extra-2", a whole 2 inches of suspension, plus we rode 60MPH back then.

Today, I'm not happy unless I can maintain 85+ on all grades so I don't have to make Polaris Dan and Slim Cake wait for me at every stop sign.

Bear

we need more PD on this site!

Make Polaris Dan Great Again!!!

 

[byr 13]

Some great points being made here. Question for you though, I've been riding the Nichols trail from Mass City to Houghton, and north, for 30 years now, looooong before deep lugged mountain sleds were thought of. I wonder why the trails were just as bumpy back then?

skylar, 30 years ago that trail was smooth !!! hmmmmm