Grooming

[lenny]

Just wanted to throw my thoughts on there on trail conditions and grooming. The fact is, trails change by the hr. What you remember a area to be like will not be the same weather it be better or worse. Last night I groomed trail 13 from Greenland, through Rockland and half way to Bergland. The trail was actually decent in general with some mogul areas, some snirt and some great but in general a worth while trail to ride. Keep in mind this trail is a main trail from Bergland to Greenland/Mass City and up north so it gets heavy traffic. The area before Rockland is always consistently rough so we run that area a total of 6 passes and it is smooth as glass after a groom. Last weekend the same trail seen record traffic, a good span of low snow so it was probably the roughest it could get at times of the day. A rider may ride it at mid-day and say what the He** and I can understand that but the morning riders may see it as "wow, beautiful". The late evening guys will also love it. So, the conditions vary greatly from hr to hr as I indicated. Often people plan a day to a destination and do that trip after trip and often see mid-day trail deterioration and that is the norm for them. My suggestion is to think outside the norm and plan a little differently especially with a low snow, heavy traffic year. There comes a point (and we have reached it much of this year) that the groom cannot keep up with the extreme conditions and riders are often discouraged, again, I can understand but the only way to see that change is for the rider to make the change. The groomer cannot create a miracle or make it snow so the only other part of the equation is the rider. It's not "A" riders fault the trails are rough but only the rider can alter the way they ride and when they ride. Riders who are willing to try an help sustain a more durable trail can slow down in the corners and ride higher on the outside, accelerate slower from stops, maybe keep the top speed down a few mph's, not hammer it going up inclines which makes big whoops. Ever notice how the whoops are on the right side of a trail going up the hill?

There are ways to help out but we all need to be willing to work together. I understand it may not be as fun of ride to make adjustments but which is worse, ease back a little or ride moguls?

Just a perspective from a guy wanting to see better conditions

 

[snowdance]

Last weekend when we were up we did that exact thing. We were staying in Mass City and were going to meet someone in Toivola friday morning. Instead of taking the trail 3 grade there, we left earlier and took the 13 loop hoping to ride the fresh ribbon all way on that loop. Unfortunately they didn't groom it that night :-( But, it really wasn't in that bad of shape, so we enjoyed it anyways. Oh well..

I also couldn't agree more with Lenny about everyone doing their part. Come up to stop signs sand gradually stop. Take off more gradually and not nail the gas immediately creating a lump of snow. Don't wash through the corners. If everyone did their part the trails may hold up longer. But, unfortunately I don't see this ever happening, Ricky Racer is always going to be just that and probably not change how they ride.

 

[dekx]

All I can say, is thank you to ALL the groomers for what you do! If their is moguls, i ride, if they're as smooth as glass, I ride! When I ride moguls, I get to see how great the suspension is working, when they are smooth as glass, I enjoy how smooth it is! Any snowmobiling conditions are better then being at work!!!

My father is 69 years old and still rides and hasn't complained yet once this year about the trail conditions so THANK YOU AGAIN GROOMERS!

 

[qber]

Given the very large numbers of sleds in the area last weekend due to the lack of snow elsewhere, the trails were good to excellent depending on how many sleds had passed since the last groomer. The trails 3, 13, 12 and 109 (between the power lines and twin lakes) were really groomed nice despite the fact that the sleds, in general do everything possible to undo the work of the groomers. Groomers- you won - great job!!

 

[BREEZY]

Great post lenny, will keep that in mind when riding as i like to gas it at stops. All makes sence to me but it is hard to do for some people like myself so will keep that in mind when riding to keep trails better.

 

[nytro_rtx]

X2 I couldn't agree more!!

All I can say, is thank you to ALL the groomers for what you do! If their is moguls, i ride, if they're as smooth as glass, I ride! When I ride moguls, I get to see how great the suspension is working, when they are smooth as glass, I enjoy how smooth it is! Any snowmobiling conditions are better then being at work!!!

My father is 69 years old and still rides and hasn't complained yet once this year about the trail conditions so THANK YOU AGAIN GROOMERS!

 

[lenny]

Great post lenny, will keep that in mind when riding as i like to gas it at stops. All makes sence to me but it is hard to do for some people like myself so will keep that in mind when riding to keep trails better.

your gonna have a heck of a time not brappppin it with the brand new 800r. Get a handful of that and you better be hangin on!

It's a lot to ask people to change their style of riding, and in reality I am not asking, just suggesting that if someone wanted to take part in reducing rougher trails, it can be done. Probably many people do tread lightly and that's great!

 

[MR.HAPPY]

That will help Lenny! The biggest thing that needs to be done on 13 between Greenland/Mass & Bergland is run the groomer like they do on trail 3! They groom trail 3 at least twice & three times daily mostly because they know the traffic is heavy there!!! That's what would work better than sledders coasting through the trail! You groomers do great jobs & we all love you, but thats the answer!

 

[Banks93]

Thank you groomer drivers. I like the groomer the guy had the other day with the traxx system. That was sweet.

I think everyone is just saying maybe with record number of people in the Western UP that maybe they could go out 10 times a day instead of the normal 6.

Thanks again for the grooming Lenny.

 

[bonnevier]

If there is way to send out the groomer right before I head out that would be great...kinda like stopping traffic for the president.

 

[lenny]

That will help Lenny! The biggest thing that needs to be done on 13 between Greenland/Mass & Bergland is run the groomer like they do on trail 3! They groom trail 3 at least twice & three times daily mostly because they know the traffic is heavy there!!! That's what would work better than sledders coasting through the trail! You groomers do great jobs & we all love you, but thats the answer!

funding wouldn't normally handle 2-3 grooms a day. We'd be out of money by Feb. Day time grooming is all PR IMO. The money to run a 22,000 lb machine that takes 40 gallons of diesel to run 46 miles, 8 man hrs, and is junk after 10 sleds,,,, is a waste. Sledders are the only ones who think they got a good deal. Example, I just ran the old snojet from Greenland to Rockland. Roy M just left before I did to groom the trail and I passed him on the highway before he jumped into the woods. I Passed 6 sleds going towards Greenland. I turned around in Rockland and just as I was heading back I passed a group of 8-10 sleds. I continued back towards Greenland and came up to the groomer and where the traffic had ran the groomed trail, it was virtually no different than the trail before grooming. This trail will be ridden the rest of the evening and all day tomorrow and will be rough. Recycled snow and heavy traffic plain destroys trails. Daytime grooming is meaningless IMO but with an all volunteer crew, how can you dictate a schedule ? There really is no good solution, it's the nature of the beast. Us groomers could leave later but than few sledders would see groomers and we'd be accused of not grooming. Retired volunteers cannot go out starting in evening hrs because it is to much to ask and we'd have no one to groom. As it it they are returning home after midnight.

I am not suggesting riders coast through the trail. The suggestions I made are simple and effective and would make a difference and the fun factor not compromised much. If you look at the line through the corners, you will see how the low side of the corner is washed out regardless of the direction of travel. It shows how speed drives us through the corners and how we hog the trail and often startle the oncoming traffic. No doubt I am getting older and ride less aggressive but at the same time we all have a little room to improve upon, especially with marginal snow and heavy traffic.

 

[blkhwkbob]

Good idea, but there are way too many idiots who buy a snowmobile and call themselves a "snowmobiler," when they don't do anything for the hobby except ride. You won't reach those people here. Most of the people that sit in bars and complain about the trails are the same ones braaaping up a storm, skidding into turns and nailing it out of them, and blipping it up hills and tearing up the trails.

 

[snowfreak56]

Lenny thank you and all clubs and groomers for what you do to give us trails to ride.It is a real shame some dont have a clue and realize they can help some with conditions exspecially in a year like this one.

 

[bobsledder]

Bless the groomer driver!!! You have done a great job with tons of traffic and low snow. THANK YOU!!!!
Bob

 

[buddah2]

I too would like to thank all the volunteer operators for their time.

Now, a little comment on the Munising area. Years ago the DNR used to handle the grooming and they did the trails at 0200 hrs. or whatever where the trails had a few hours to setup before any traffic hit them. They would stay decent most of the day except for the exceptionally heavy traffic areas. Then budget cuts forced them to delegate that task out.

Locally the guy with the grooming contract is in it as a for-profit business. Thus his equipment never makes as many passes as needed for the amount of traffic (increased operation means increased fuel costs); and the groomers only run during the day and early evening......no need to pay shift differentials to paid groomer operators, eh? Thus it's a common sight to see a groomer running a trail at a decent clip with the nose of the drag in the air (called panning.......no need to increase those pesky fuel costs) with 20 or 25 sleds right behind it. And people continue to wonder why the trails have so many moguls in them.

I don't have a solution......just giving one explanation for the problem.......

 

[lenny]

I too would like to thank all the volunteer operators for their time.

Now, a little comment on the Munising area. Years ago the DNR used to handle the grooming and they did the trails at 0200 hrs. or whatever where the trails had a few hours to setup before any traffic hit them. They would stay decent most of the day except for the exceptionally heavy traffic areas. Then budget cuts forced them to delegate that task out.

Locally the guy with the grooming contract is in it as a for-profit business. Thus his equipment never makes as many passes as needed for the amount of traffic (increased operation means increased fuel costs); and the groomers only run during the day and early evening......no need to pay shift differentials to paid groomer operators, eh? Thus it's a common sight to see a groomer running a trail at a decent clip with the nose of the drag in the air (called panning.......no need to increase those pesky fuel costs) with 20 or 25 sleds right behind it. And people continue to wonder why the trails have so many moguls in them.

I don't have a solution......just giving one explanation for the problem.......

I believe ya bud, I've seen it first hand in a different area. If the Midwest snow was spread out and we had average snow things would be different. We could run during daylight hrs more so and have a good result. I am by no means bashing groomer drivers who go out early because what they contribute is priceless. I could afford to go even later. Last night I seen 3 sleds in the entire 46 miles, 8.5 hr run and I couldn't believe it. Last night coming in, another groomer was heading out at 3 am.

Traffic has decreased at least for yesterday. Surprisingly the trail was in good shape today at 5 pm. Keep in mind that my opinions are mine and do not reflect that of our club so I could be way off on the way I see things and I am certainly am open for correction. I've only got 5 years behind me now and still learn each time out.

I appreciate the thanks guy but it's not necessary. I started the thread because I am disappointed on how fast the trails fall apart at times and more so of recent. I groom but also ride and thought to throw out some awareness of riding styles to try an see the trail sustain more miles of smoothness,,,is smoothness a word?

 

[russholio]

Good idea, but there are way too many idiots who buy a snowmobile and call themselves a "snowmobiler," when they don't do anything for the hobby except ride. You won't reach those people here. Most of the people that sit in bars and complain about the trails are the same ones braaaping up a storm, skidding into turns and nailing it out of them, and blipping it up hills and tearing up the trails.

Indeed. Those that complain the loudest are usually the worst offenders.

 

[Mark@TimberlineSports]

Thank you groomer drivers. I like the groomer the guy had the other day with the traxx system. That was sweet./QUOTE]

This guy!


-Mark
______________________________

 

[loriwlrc]

Dave groomed 14 hrs. straight on Tues.and at 1 a.m. Wed. 6 sleds left the Bug Bar (waiting for the groomer) passed me, lined up and drag raced several times, trashing the trail right in front of him ( 14 hours for nothing! ) they continued on towards Mass. Very impressive boys/girls???? Also someone tha lives in Twin Lakes has 2 signs posted in his yard and now has a picture of a track going right between them and right through his yard. Dave also has a picture of someone carving up th DNR yard in Twin Lakes, between the NO SNOWMOBILING SIGNS!

 

[whitedust]

Lenny I used to ride with a guy that would jack rabbit start at every stop sign leave humps of snow spit out & blow out the trails. I finally cut out in front of him waved him down stopped got off my sled & asked what the **** he was doing & Why?? His response was "I just like to do that I luv acellllllllllleration". I told him "you are wrecking trails for everyone once in awhile ok but at every stop"? He said "I just like it & pay for my trail permit so this is what I do". I said "we are both at the next stop at the same time & I don't do that I start out without blowouts then midrange punch to be right on your butt everytime". He said "it's not a top speed thing it is the thrill of the ultra fast start that I enjoy". So the long & short of it no matter what I said it just came down to this guys riding style & he was not going to change because he enjoyed ripping the jack rabbit starts. No disrespect but some guys just like to ride hard & fast & tear up trails in their wake. Does it get on my nerves?? ... heck yes! ...but if this is what they want to do no amount of reasoning will change their minds. This riding buddy finally cooled his jets after many years & started riding more like me to the point where I waved him down stopped him on the trail just for grins & giggles. I said "what's up no jack rabbitt starts you ok"? He said "yeah I stopped doing that I was ripping up trails & too hard on my sled." I said "Fanfringtastic only took you 5 years & 10,000 trail miles to figure that one out!!