Grooming

dcfroe

New member
Great discussion and points, Lenny, Dave and the rest of the Groomers deserve our thanks! I hate to say it but I believe for the most part it is an age thing. I am in my mid 50's and I guess I've been there done that. Now all I want is a smooth trails and as many miles in a day as I can get. Don't have that "need for speed" and feel of power like I used to. I don't think there is an answer unless we want to invite police and others to be riding up and down the trails handing out citations and I sure don't want that. It is not that different than our highways, just on a compacted scale. We have hot rods that want to race on the interstates, drunk drivers, people who drive with no regard for others rights, people driving trying to run down animals on the road. Really a pretty sad description of humans, however we close our eyes and shake our heads because we know it will never change. Someday maybe we can all learn respect for others but until that happens, well I guess I will sum it up this way:
When I was young, if I got in trouble I really did not want my dad to find out about it because I knew my butt would get tanned, today if a kid gets in trouble many parent will stick up for their child and say "My Johnny would never do that" and try to get the kid out of trouble to "Save him some trauma". Maybe they need to get a little trauma and a smack in the butt with a fly swatter.
God I feel much older now!!:)
 
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lenny

Guest
you guys are right, there's always gonna be those guys but most of us capable of minor change and still able to have fun.
 

Snowdee

Member
It's definitely an age thing. I did have a head shaking moment at the beginning of this thread, though. There were several posts suggesting the groomers going out even more and during daylight hours. I then recalled the unbelievably long thread earlier this year about the increase in trail permit costs and the amount of whining and complaining about the extra 10 bucks. I hope these aren't the same people! :eek:
 

MR.HAPPY

Member
I was agreeing with Lenny on sleds slowing down & not acting like its the first day out of the house in 6 months, but on trail 13 there is too many sleds traveling that trail to & from Bergland...About 5-6 years ago Our group sat with a older guy that said he had groomed for many, many years with all types of grooming equipment, vibrating being the best. He told us that grooming is a simple system & you need 3 things to make it work, snow, cold & groom! He told us that too many places don't have all 3. He also said, there is places that have all 3, but don't groom enough to create a real base & without a real base there is no real trail....If they groom enough to create this base early & often, then the trail holds up better & when the groomer goes through at any time of day it helps! Remember you need all 3 things! If there is no base, like trail 13 most of the last few years, there is no real trail! One of the biggest problems my group has seen & have heard others say, other than "we need snow", is these deep lugged tracks on these sleds designed for "OFF" trail! Follow a couple of these guys for a couple miles & you will be saying OMG, what are they thinking!!! Screaming pipes & smell like chainsaws! I love snowmobiling & all the great people that make it happen, but without all 3, Snow-Cold & Grooming, its not going to be what it should be or could be!
 
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lenny

Guest
Good points coldone! For the most part I agree with all that. There are more variables to the equation than just those three but those three are the basis. Right now we have all three of those components but yet we have less than great trails.

We have the snow but lack of new snow degrades the current snow to "sugar" or "recycled." Cold temps will set up sugar to some minor degree but you need 0-15 to get that to happen and we have had little of that this season. Actually in these conditions, a warm day can get moisture back into the sugar and set up a trail but than you may have overheating issues on the sled. Put a little snow on that base and we're off to a great start.That's exactly what we strive for in Dec. Even on an average snow year the trails often turn to sugar and the base is shot, not all the way to the ground because there always seems to be ice there but the normal durable base is greatly compromise. Even on a high snow year, if you get prolonged no new snows and heavy traffic you get the effect we have now but with monster moguls. Personally I believe things could have been worse around here if we had a huge base because the moguls can get bad but only as high in relation to the amount of snow, which is low now on the trail so the moguls don't get as big. With heavy traffic, and no new snows, sugar snow takes about a week to develop so it's not that long or unusual. When this sugar snow develops there is little you can do with it and that is where we are now and have been for a few weeks. Keep in mind I am referring to my area but we are receiving new snows now and and we may see some very good trail condition real soon. I think by Monday they will be real good and after next weeks snows even better. Traffic normally begins to slow right around now or in a week. So, we can fight "base" issues on any level of accumulated snows if we have a prolonged time frame of no new snow and experience heavy traffic.

We also have had the temps for the most part. We have had a few warm ups but the lack of fresh snow has been the main crippling factor of the three basics you mention. The over all determining factor of rough trails is the traffic. That's not a bad thing in general but add that to low snow and we have problems. Basically the UP has all the snow in da Midwest so everybody is around here which is nice for business but the riders experience no so great of conditions. I would say the temps have been the least of our issues but than again I could be wrong there because with cold temps comes LE.

We also have had the grooming working at least on a normal basis on average and extra efforts to some degree. I do know that the trail you are referring to has been run by 2 machines at the same time on at least one occasion. Many of us hit areas twice or three time. I often back up and hit corners numerous times to get the snow in shape so we have taken extra precautions to try and deal with rough trails. The only improvement we as groomers could make is to ALWAYS go out late to take advantage of few sleds destroying a clean ribbon which is critical and at the same time we would have the coldest temps of the night and early morning hrs to see it set up. Oh yea, the warmer daytime temps contribute to rapid deterioration of trail conditions.

So,,,,in our current condition, daytime additional grooming does virtually nothing to improve trail condition except in the mind of the riders because they believe something is being done to fix the problem. Maybe the first 25 sleds can say it wasn't bad and that is worth something. In reality and I mean literally, five sleds can take a fresh ribbon to a unnoticeably groomed trail. On a cold day with fresh snow a mid-day groom will yield much better results and worth the money.

Lastly, double or triple grooming a 23 mile one way trail that has twisty, hills in the mix is very time consuming often running at 3-5 miles per hr on rough, especially with no grooming blade in front. Double grooming the grade from Twin Lakes to Toilola or Mass is less than 14 miles one way and flat, much easier to do and makes many people happy. I agree, sometimes PR is worth while because the trail can be almost impassable for some rider so an effort to knock the trail down does help but right back up they come (moguls.)
 
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