help me understand grooming equipment

[Tracker]

TSG....you say no demand...yet you and 300,000 others are looking and wishing they could have them back again....hmmmmm...and don't kid yourself....its the bosses saying no....not demand....like the car manu's.....tesla has long lines and people pay in advance....you'd think one of the other manus would take note and make like a 400HP 70MPG MKZ HYBRID....or a CAMARO HYBRID....TAURUS HYBRID...IMPALA HYBRID....a car that ALL PEOPLE CLAMBOR FOR....nope....not a one....some old guy says....nope...just put in an engine we have already and a really weak battery...demand is there...but again...its almost always 100% the head department blocking progress by being scared and ill informed and stuck in old ways...every industry

and from youse guys info.....I see a company niche that needs filled.....tractors and groomers MADE FOR TRAILS

 

[fatdaddy]

Looks like a lot of thoughts on this, one other question is, if swamps in our area are so common why don't clubs purchase a small groomer such as the one Arctic Cat has or perhaps the Cat/Yamaha Viking, I've seen these advertised and never see any. I know there small but it seems it would fill a hole in the market, or perhaps what john mentioned a side by side with tracks and a small groomer , both of those can be used a rescue or mai

 

[ddhanna]

We have found that our JD Gator w/tracks pulling a small drag gets buried in a swamp just as easy as our Tucker or Pisten Bully. It easier to extract however.

 

[Tracker]

how aboot one of these with tracks.....IT AM GONNA BE GOODSKI

 

[Tracker]

actually this might be "THE ANSWER".....god I cannot wait to retire and do all this for a club.....I gonna love it....I got some good ideas too

 

[J.Glenn]

Keep in mind the vast majority of tractors are made for farming not grooming. Tracks are a dealer installed option not a factory option. Tucker's and Piston Bully's are purpose build for snow but again more so for grooming down hill ski slopes. Pretty much everything us groomers use is not designed for trail grooming. Not many swamps in the mountains out west. However the escape hatch can come in handy in swamps tho they are designed for escape in a Avalanche.

It's safe to say that all tractors are designed and made for some sort of agricultural application and not for grooming. The other thing, you actually can order a traditional row crop tractor right from the factory with tracks that is not the traditional larger 4WD tractor.

Jakerides is spot on, that almost all equipment, with the exception of drags, are not made for snow purposes. He also knows a lot about equipment / grooming, as he is very involved in a club in NE Wisconsin who does an EXCELLENT job grooming their trails. Ride them all the time, and thanks jakerides.

Regarding the notion that companies make specific equipment, i am sure that is discussed and explored, and if there are as many opportunities as you think, some one would be doing it. Niche specific equipment takes time to develop, test, and bring to market, and the rewards better out weigh the costs, especially in this day and age. I personally do not see a vast or expansive market for "trail grooming specific" equipment. Too weather and economic dependent. Club funds and matching state funds are hard to come by and always changing. And, clubs in areas that suffer to see consistent snow, keep equipment for years and years. And finally, from what i have been told, the resale value and perspective buyer market for specific equipment, like tuckers and Piston Bulleys, is difficult when it comes to selling or trading. So......I am sure this has been examined by numerous companies, just not enough demand to bring to market.

As for the snowmobile size comment, could not agree more as I have older kids and younger kids, and i regret seller the smaller sleds we had. However the reason smaller sleds are not being made, is based on demand, and lack of. Plan and simple, regardless of what we all feel or think.

TSG, you're exactly right, your major tractor manufacturers are not going to cater to a very niche market that would have very low volumes on a yearly basis.

 

[Tracker]

It's safe to say that all tractors are designed and made for some sort of agricultural application and not for grooming. The other thing, you actually can order a traditional row crop tractor right from the factory with tracks that is not the traditional larger 4WD tractor.



TSG, you're exactly right, your major tractor manufacturers are not going to cater to a very niche market that would have very low volumes on a yearly basis.

it could work.....all you do is scale down all the dimensions by a certain percentage and machine the parts.....I make things like this out of plastic first this way...and then scale them up...and I have made tractors also...its way easier than you think since most molds and machining programs are already written and online at the company

 

[J.Glenn]

it could work.....all you do is scale down all the dimensions by a certain percentage and machine the parts.....I make things like this out of plastic first this way...and then scale them up...and I have made tractors also...its way easier than you think since most molds and machining programs are already written and online at the company

Could work, yes. But again your major manufacturers are not going to invest in a unique tractor for trail grooming only. It wouldn’t work financially with the low volumes per year. If someone can take one of the products currently offered in a manufacturer’s line up and make it work for that specific need, then they will.

But as TSG suggests, if this was a lucrative business opportunity, someone would already be onto it.

 

[CrossfireLOW]

What I don't understand is why there is not more use of pull behind drag groomers on snowmobiles.

I have seen and read of using a wide track long tracked utility snowmobile like an ac bearcat or ski-doo scandic with a drag for portages around voyagers national park and birch lake near ely, mn. Why isn't there more use of these? They seem like a good alternative to full size groomers during the early season everywhere when there isn't quite enough frost in the ground for a full sized groomer.

I realize cost as an issue, it would be another machine to buy and maintain, but it's usefulness early in the winter may warrant the cost.

 

[xcr440]

What I don't understand is why there is not more use of pull behind drag groomers on snowmobiles.

I have seen and read of using a wide track long tracked utility snowmobile like an ac bearcat or ski-doo scandic with a drag for portages around voyagers national park and birch lake near ely, mn. Why isn't there more use of these? They seem like a good alternative to full size groomers during the early season everywhere when there isn't quite enough frost in the ground for a full sized groomer.

I realize cost as an issue, it would be another machine to buy and maintain, but it's usefulness early in the winter may warrant the cost.

True, its pretty cool when you get out there on Voyagers and have a groomed trail across the big lakes!

 

[Banks93]

What I don't understand is why there is not more use of pull behind drag groomers on snowmobiles.

I have seen and read of using a wide track long tracked utility snowmobile like an ac bearcat or ski-doo scandic with a drag for portages around voyagers national park and birch lake near ely, mn. Why isn't there more use of these? They seem like a good alternative to full size groomers during the early season everywhere when there isn't quite enough frost in the ground for a full sized groomer.

I realize cost as an issue, it would be another machine to buy and maintain, but it's usefulness early in the winter may warrant the cost.

Those would probably work good for a local trail with less than 100 sleds running on it a week. The weight of the drag and snow needed to fix most trails cannot be done by a snowmobile drag.

 

[CrossfireLOW]

Those would probably work good for a local trail with less than 100 sleds running on it a week. The weight of the drag and snow needed to fix most trails cannot be done by a snowmobile drag.

My thinking is not to "fix" the trails mid season though, it is to utilize the relative light weight of a sled pulled drag to pack down early season snow so that the base can freeze up much faster than natural, allowing a full size groomer to hit the trail sooner. There isn't much better insulator to ground frost growth than unpacked snow, once that snow is packed down the frost can grow quite fast.

 

[Banks93]

My thinking is not to "fix" the trails mid season though, it is to utilize the relative light weight of a sled pulled drag to pack down early season snow so that the base can freeze up much faster than natural, allowing a full size groomer to hit the trail sooner. There isn't much better insulator to ground frost growth than unpacked snow, once that snow is packed down the frost can grow quite fast.

I don't think pulling a drag behind the snowmobile is going to pack swamps any better. Maybe a Ranger 1000 SxS with tracks but I don't think clubs have the $$$ to be buying special equipment to just use once in a while.

They usually try and buy the best piece of equipment that will cover mostly everything. I am sure all clubs would want one of each.

 

[ddhanna]

I don't think pulling a drag behind the snowmobile is going to pack swamps any better. Maybe a Ranger 1000 SxS with tracks but I don't think clubs have the $$$ to be buying special equipment to just use once in a while.

They usually try and buy the best piece of equipment that will cover mostly everything. I am sure all clubs would want one of each.

Actually... This year in Three Lakes we purchased an AC Bearcat trying to relieve volunteers from having to use their personal equipment with the nasty duty of packing swamps. We pull about a 5' roller and a couple passes and you're done. Pulling a drag probably wouldn't better solve the to problem. We also have a JD Gator with a small drag but mostly use that for lake feeder trails or where big stuff can't get to (Thanks ED Lamb!!).

 

[Deleted member 10829]

I thought this looked promising, from February 22, 2011:
(click →) "Michigan Tech Researcher Grooms Snow Roads in Antarctica", and also the (click →) "Keweenaw Snow Paver".

Six years later I wonder what ever came of either/both of those, lots o' research, no viable product?

I saw the snow paver in action in the Keweenaw several years ago after reading about it in one of the snowmobile rags. I thought it was a great idea, but haven't seen one since. I'm curious what became of it as well.

 

[HardwaterHoosier]

https://youtu.be/HIfbOEn52CI

I can hear the chimes now. Why are these trails so bumpy? Shouldn't the groomers be larger to knock the bumps down?

 

[MZEMS2]

Our club uses both. We typically have low snow conditions so the tractor does better for us. Our tractor has tires with chains. The trails here get pounded hard if/when they do open, so the snow goes fast, and ice starts fast if it's cold enough. The chains get us pretty much anywhere we wanna go. The tractor does better on fuel and much better as far as maintenance goes. We also have a 4 track Tucker with cleats on the belts/tracks. The cleats make for a pretty rough ride if there is low snow, so, it tends to stay in the shed. In fact, we acquired our current Tucker two years ago and we haven't had enough snow yet to justify getting it out. Tractor for low snow, Tucker for good snow, tractor for fuel economy, comfort, and ride, and Tucker for busting through the drifts