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polarisrider1

New member
WASHINGTON — A prominent physicist and skeptic of global warming spent two years trying to find out if mainstream climate scientists were wrong. In the end, he determined they were right: Temperatures really are rising rapidly.

The study of the world's surface temperatures by Richard Muller was partially bankrolled by a foundation connected to global warming deniers. He pursued long-held skeptic theories in analyzing the data. He was spurred to action because of "Climategate," a British scandal involving hacked emails of scientists.

Yet he found that the land is 1.6 degrees warmer than in the 1950s. Those numbers from Muller, who works at the University of California, Berkeley and Lawrence Berkeley National Lab, match those by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and NASA.

He said he went even further back, studying readings from Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson. His ultimate finding of a warming world, to be presented at a conference Monday, is no different from what mainstream climate scientists have been saying for decades.

What's different, and why everyone from opinion columnists to "The Daily Show" is paying attention is who is behind the study.

One-quarter of the $600,000 to do the research came from the Charles Koch Foundation, whose founder is a major funder of skeptic groups and the tea party. The Koch brothers, Charles and David, run a large privately held company involved in oil and other industries, producing sizable greenhouse gas emissions.

Muller's research team carefully examined two chief criticisms by skeptics. One is that weather stations are unreliable; the other is that cities, which create heat islands, were skewing the temperature analysis.

"The skeptics raised valid points and everybody should have been a skeptic two years ago," Muller said in a telephone interview. "And now we have confidence that the temperature rise that had previously been reported had been done without bias."

Muller said that he came into the study "with a proper skepticism," something scientists "should always have. I was somewhat bothered by the fact that there was not enough skepticism" before.


There is no reason now to be a skeptic about steadily increasing temperatures, Muller wrote recently in The Wall Street Journal's editorial pages, a place friendly to skeptics. Muller did not address in his research the cause of global warming. The overwhelming majority of climate scientists say it's man-made from the burning of fossil fuels such as coal and oil. Nor did his study look at ocean warming, future warming and how much of a threat to mankind climate change might be.

Still, Muller said it makes sense to reduce the carbon dioxide created by fossil fuels.

"Greenhouse gases could have a disastrous impact on the world," he said. Still, he contends that threat is not as proven as the Nobel Prize-winning Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says it is.

On Monday, Muller was taking his results – four separate papers that are not yet published or peer-reviewed, but will be, he says – to a conference in Santa Fe, N.M., expected to include many prominent skeptics as well as mainstream scientists.

"Of course he'll be welcome," said Petr Chylek of Los Alamos National Lab, a noted skeptic and the conference organizer. "The purpose of our conference is to bring people with different views on climate together, so they can talk and clarify things."

Shawn Lawrence Otto, author of the book "Fool Me Twice" that criticizes science skeptics, said Muller should expect to be harshly treated by global warming deniers. "Now he's considered a traitor. For the skeptic community, this isn't about data or fact. It's about team sports. He's been traded to the Indians. He's playing for the wrong team now."

And that started on Sunday, when a British newspaper said one of Muller's co-authors, Georgia Tech climate scientist Judith Curry, accused Muller of another Climategate-like scandal and trying to "hide the decline" of recent global temperatures.

The Associated Press contacted Curry on Sunday afternoon and she said in an email that Muller and colleagues "are not hiding any data or otherwise engaging in any scientifically questionable practice."

The Muller "results unambiguously show an increase in surface temperature since 1960," Curry wrote Sunday. She said she disagreed with Muller's public relations efforts and some public comments from Muller about there no longer being a need for skepticism.

Muller's study found that skeptics' concerns about poor weather station quality didn't skew the results of his analysis because temperature increases rose similarly in reliable and unreliable weather stations. He also found that while there is an urban heat island effect making cities warmer, rural areas, which are more abundant, are warming, too.

Among many climate scientists, the reaction was somewhat of a yawn.

"After lots of work he found exactly what was already known and accepted in the climate community," said Jerry North, a Texas A&M University atmospheric sciences professor who headed a National Academy of Sciences climate science review in 2006. "I am hoping their study will have a positive impact. But some folks will never change."

Chris Field, a Carnegie Institution scientist who is chief author of an upcoming intergovernmental climate change report, said Muller's study "may help the world's citizens focus less on whether climate change is real and more on smart options for addressing it."

Some of the most noted scientific skeptics are no longer saying the world isn't warming. Instead, they question how much of it is man-made, view it as less a threat and argue it's too expensive to do something about, Otto said.

Skeptical MIT scientist Richard Lindzen said it is a fact and nothing new that global average temperatures have been rising since 1950, as Muller shows. "It's hard to see how any serious scientist (skeptical, denier or believer – frequently depending on the exact question) will view it otherwise," he wrote in an email.

In a brief email statement, the Koch Foundation noted that Muller's team didn't examine ocean temperature or the cause of warming and said it will continue to fund such research. "The project is ongoing and entering peer review, and we're proud to support this strong, transparent research," said foundation spokeswoman Tonya Mullins.

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Firecatguy

New member
Al Gore bank account just went up another Billion......scientist yeap.....maybe they are are the same one on HCS doing oil test....
 

ezra

Well-known member
WASHINGTON — A prominent physicist and skeptic of global warmingby Richard Muller was partially bankrolled by a foundation connected to global warming deniers.Muller, who works at the University of California, Berkeley and Lawrence Berkeley National Lab, match those by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and NASA.

hmm so Berkeley hired a guy who was a sceptic of global warming ? something about that makes me doubtful of this guys intent from the word go.Berkeley!!!.
If it is true I would rather have global warming to the tune of 1.6 deg than a mini ice age any day. hard to grow food in the cold
 

skiroule

Well-known member
I guess I've been guilty of being in the denial camp but it's pretty hard to ignore the facts. Even I have to admit that the typical winter we had when I was a kid (I no longer am) and the typical winter of today do not seem to be the same, particularly when it comes to length of season. Years ago we never even thought about the snow being gone until mid-April. Now it's iffy by the second week in March.

The thing that strikes me now is how extreme the winter warm spells can be and quickly a warmup can wipe out several weeks of slow buildup to good riding conditions. Here in the southern part of the state where the trails often cross cultivated land, I've seen excellent riding conditions blown away in 2 -3 days of warm weather and rain. Very frustrating.
 

anonomoose

New member
Global warming, climate change, weather patterns, cold winters, warm winters, drought, floods....often used and mixed interchangably.

Warming is the "mean" temperature as measured in one place and averaged over time compounded by many places of measurement all over the globe. Not hard to do, and has been done for probably 80 years with various degrees of accuracy (equipment to measure has improved).

As to the cause of this, and whether man is having an impact on his own environment, is something much harder to measure and prove either way.

The effect of this "warming" is self-evident, and not that hard even for a layman to assess.

Will it bring on more drought, high heat, evaporation of the lakes and streams and shrinkage of the ice cap....or another ice age....it is not something clearly understood, or agreed upon.

Common sense says that as we use energy to produce heat, we contribute to some degree. Whether it is enough to offset the balance is not something anyone can say with any certainty.

Question; if we ARE contributing....and we COULD be tipping the balance....is it worth the effort to do something to minimize man's impact...or should we just wait and see what happens and figure it out...later? And if we ARE having an impact, how much should we do, and how much money should we spend to try and curb man's footprint? Should we wait until it costs far more to fix, and takes a bigger bite out of the budget or should we take pre-emptive actions for the sake of safety, efficiency, or the health of the planet?</SPAN>

Collectively we have to decide, don’t we? I mean it isn’t like we have any other place to go….

btw, I did NOT invent the internet!</SPAN></SPAN>
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
Pretty nicely put anonomoose.

I think the only point I would pick an argument about is: "The effect of this "warming" is self-evident". I cannot think of a single thing happening in the weather in the past 10-20 years that I could clearly point to any kind of warming going on in our climate. There have been lots of connections tried to be made like robust hurricane seasons, droughts, floods, lake/river levels, etc...but in every case I can think of any of the episodic events blamed on climate change have not stood. All droughts are still ending, all floods are still receding, active tropical seasons are followed by less than average seasons...

I think it goes without argument that if the climate changes enough, so will things like hurricane seasons, average rainfall for different areas, etc, I just see no evidence of that yet.

skiroule- I am not picking on you by any means because I hear this statement from lots of folks who love snow. I do not know what era you grew up in and where, but I can say that the actual data does not support the idea that winters were any more cold or snowy years ago. I can say that the 70's were a pretty cold and snowy decade as a whole for the Midwest, but those were exceptional years and not the norm. Personally, I can say that I can only remember 4 years in the 30 of growing up in the Chicago area where we had what would have been considered a harsh winter and 2 of them were in the late 70's. More of my memories are of the years with little or no real snow to play in. In fact if northern IL and southern WI had had winters like the past 3-4 when I was growing up down there, I might have never wanted to take a trip to where the snow was guaranteed to be deep (up here) and thus might have never moved and thus started this site!

As for the article, all I got out of it was that a guy once PAID to argue against GW is now being PAID to argue for it. Hence my advice to everyone to take anything that is said by someone paid to speak about it with a lot of caution.

-John
 

dcsnomo

Moderator
I do not know what era you grew up in and where, but I can say that the actual data does not support the idea that winters were any more cold or snowy years ago. I can say that the 70's were a pretty cold and snowy decade as a whole for the Midwest, but those were exceptional years and not the norm. Personally, I can say that I can only remember 4 years in the 30 of growing up in the Chicago area where we had what would have been considered a harsh winter and 2 of them were in the late 70's. More of my memories are of the years with little or no real snow to play in. In fact if northern IL and southern WI had had winters like the past 3-4 when I was growing up down there, I might have never wanted to take a trip to where the snow was guaranteed to be deep (up here) and thus might have never moved and thus started this site!


-John

When I was a kid walking to school in the 60's and 70's it was 50 below zero, we measured snow in feet, not inches, and the walk to school was uphill both ways! :)
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
When I was a kid walking to school in the 60's and 70's it was 50 below zero, we measured snow in feet, not inches, and the walk to school was uphill both ways! :)

Good one and I know you were just kidding (smiley face), but just a little clarification on my thoughts. I did not mean to say that folks think that because they want to talk about how hard they had it. I think it is all done innocently and is just the way our minds work. We have a tendency to remember the good and forget the bad. So snow lovers remember the big snow seasons and forget the bad ones.

-John
 

polarisrider1

New member
Good one and I know you were just kidding (smiley face), but just a little clarification on my thoughts. I did not mean to say that folks think that because they want to talk about how hard they had it. I think it is all done innocently and is just the way our minds work. We have a tendency to remember the good and forget the bad. So snow lovers remember the big snow seasons and forget the bad ones.

-John
Could it be that back in the day when we were kids that the snow felt much deeper since we were much shorter? And that Grandma's knitted mittens and stocking cap were really not as warm as we told her they were?
 

snoluver1

Active member
skiroule- I am not picking on you by any means because I hear this statement from lots of folks who love snow. I do not know what era you grew up in and where, but I can say that the actual data does not support the idea that winters were any more cold or snowy years ago. I can say that the 70's were a pretty cold and snowy decade as a whole for the Midwest, but those were exceptional years and not the norm. Personally, I can say that I can only remember 4 years in the 30 of growing up in the Chicago area where we had what would have been considered a harsh winter and 2 of them were in the late 70's. More of my memories are of the years with little or no real snow to play in. In fact if northern IL and southern WI had had winters like the past 3-4 when I was growing up down there, I might have never wanted to take a trip to where the snow was guaranteed to be deep (up here) and thus might have never moved and thus started this site!

-John

John, one question for you. Is it possible that the data you have studied is partially skewed due to higher than "normal" swings and inconsistencies in temperature, which allow the overall averages to remain close from year to year? The reason I ask this is because the winters from my childhood memories seem to have been much more consistent in temperature, regardless of snow levels. I used to get a new pair of hockey skates for Christmas every year, and we always had solid ice for our annual neighborhood game on Christmas day. We also had fairly consistent ice throughout most of the winter. Now it seems that we fluctuate to high extremes much more often, with cold snaps being REALLY cold and thaws being REALLY hot. Maybe it is just "selective memory" but it sure does seem that way!
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
snowlover1

The data that I use is about 50 years worth and in the world of statistics the more years worth of data, the more accurate average you have, not the opposite.

I honestly think you would be surprised to see the actual numbers in some of the years you talk about.

Interestingly enough, I had a conversation with an editor for a major snowmobile magazine about this very thing and one of the examples I gave was that growing up in the Chicagoland area, there were winters that were not even cold or snowy enough for a long enough period of time to have the outdoor ice. In fact, my memories were of more years without the frozen, man-made ponds than with.

I guess at times we are all guilty of putting too much faith into our "memories" and is why when I start to talk about historical weather events, I only use the data and not my recollections of how things were.

-John
 

anonomoose

New member
Snowlover....it is important to note that the weather does have a cyclic pattern to it, and a few back to back cold wet winters can impact our memories since we have had...at least at that point in our lives, few other years to compare them to...year over year. While this summer was a hot one, back in early 1980's we had one summer that for about a month we had 100 degree temps repeatedly which really made life miserable for those who did NOT have central air which at that point was just moving into the "everyone has it now era..." We did have a window unit but it went into the bedroom so that you could sleep leaving the rest of the house less than comfortable.

I used to let my grass go "dormant" saving on the juice from Edison, mid-summer and always had it green up nicely before winter. Not that year though....it killed it dead to the roots....and it was grass seed city more than offsetting the electric bill by quite a margin....

And you and me, John will have to agree to disagree on the "self-evident" thing. Artic ice sheets disappearing and glaciers receding swiftly exposing the "ice-man" are things that really says that we really are experiencing something that is unique...man made or not.</SPAN></SPAN>
 

snoluver1

Active member
Well my take is probably all screwed up anyway, because I'm comparing my childhood in north central Massachusetts to my adulthood observations in IL. Obviously two different climates. God I wish I was "home" right now. Could have had the first ride in already!!
 

maddog24

New member
We have only been keeping track of weather records for about a 100-125 years. This is a very small glimpse of history in the grand scheme of things.
 

skiroule

Well-known member
skiroule- I am not picking on you by any means because I hear this statement from lots of folks who love snow. I do not know what era you grew up in and where
-John

I'm getting up there but I'm certainly not going to admit to pre-dating modern weather record keeping. Luckily my lawyers made me add: "do not "seem" to be the same".

My recollection was based on growing up in far northern MN and may have been skewed by the fact that the lifestyle required us to do more day to day things out in the winter elements (that maybe weren't that much fun). Still, being a true Scandinavian I'll stick to my perception, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, and say that the season just seems to get more inconsistent earlier.
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
And you and me, John will have to agree to disagree on the "self-evident" thing. Artic ice sheets disappearing and glaciers receding swiftly exposing the "ice-man" are things that really says that we really are experiencing something that is unique...man made or not.

Actually, no need. I agree that these are unique events happening- at least in our lifetime, man made or not. I guess I just am not convinced that they are happening because of climate change. The big problem I have is that somewhere along the line, someone or a few someones decided that 30 years would make a good amount of time to define an areas climate. Not sure why, I even posed this question to my colleges when I worked at the Climate Analysis Center in Washington DC and no one could answer. Maybe because we humans like to put everything in "our" time frame to make it easier for us to comprehend and 30 years seemed like a reasonably long time in human years, so why not climate.

I believe what we are seeing is that the 30 year time span might not correctly define an areas true climate. That perhaps 500 or even 5000 years might be more accurate. I mean the glacier melting and exposing "ice-man", how did "ice-man" get there in the first place? Must have been a warm enough climate for someone without snowmobile gear to be able to live in. Greenland was warm enough to support crops and settlements at one time in human history and now it's not (at least no yet anyway!). Mesa Verde in SW CO was wet enough for natives to grow corn a long time ago and now it's not, but those changes happened a long time ago. Lots of changes happened long before man was burning fossil fuels.

I am all for being responsible for our planet and am confident that the day will come when we no longer burn fossil fuels for energy.

So perhaps my definition of climate might be different from others and so my definition of climate change is different, but I can say this with 100% confidence: We live on a very dynamic planet, it is always changing.

I also think that we know far, far, far less about how the planet works than we think we do. After all, there is no real theory as to why we have ice ages and then the spells of little to no glaciation like we are in now. If it was just a colder climate, why where the glaciers found mainly on North America and not in Eurasia or even in most of the southern hemisphere? Seems to me that if the whole earth cooled, then these areas would have seen glaciation like North America did, but they didn't.

All stuff to chew on I guess. Nice discussion though!

-John
 

Skylar

Super Moderator
Staff member
Could it be that back in the day when we were kids that the snow felt much deeper since we were much shorter? And that Grandma's knitted mittens and stocking cap were really not as warm as we told her they were?

Shorter than when?
 

ezra

Well-known member
hmm mid April I don't remember many if any mid April snows in the MN metro I am trying to think way back I can remember riding my new ACT 110 I got for my B day in 4/11/1979 in shorts and t shirt.my whole childhood I wanted to have a ski b day party and never could always closed. I think everything was bigger and longer than it really was
 
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