Military Hill Issue AGAIN!

[Dave_B]

Spent a few minutes on Youtube. Don't have the time like others from another thread but, did come up with this.

Sorry Cuzz!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp-Z-EKJaZI

 

[kwikgren]

Linda- You should not have felt like you were on a soapbox. Kindergarden teacher, perhaps, but this one went in the wrong direction very quickly, in my opinion, and it's purpose was lost just as quickly. Thanks for bringing the real reason for the post back to the top.

I also have met Ron and worked with him and is a very good guy.

Sounds like a good spot for a little DNR check point for trail permits, just down the trail where the road and trail mix. Would be close enough to listen for the ones causing the trouble. Hopefully the Facebook and Youtube thing will get them busted.

-John

Unfortunately, if you aren't on guard 24-7, riders will find their way onto these hills. And someone has to pay for law enforcement to baby sit these grown up idiots. Like it or not, the glorification of mountain sledding (boondocking, sidehilling, etc) as well as ATVing has certainly helped to increase the impact in these problem areas. It is a little ironic that one of the big motivators in the form of self-promotion through media (GoPro's, YouTube, SnowCentral, etc.) turns out to be a potential pitfall for some of these riders.

It would be nice and convenient to believe that it is only the villains who are trespassing and doing property damage. I've noticed on some of the more professional hill climbing video productions of late that the producers are careful not to show summit shots. Why do you suppose that is? It could be they don't want to reveal their secret locations, or could it be that they themselves don't have actual permission to be riding there. In all probability both are true.

The sad thing is that there are a lot of responsible riders, and the old concept of don't ask, don't tell with regards to off trail riding kind of worked if done with discretion. Now this

 

[cuzzinolaf]

Spent a few minutes on Youtube. Don't have the time like others from another thread but, did come up with this.

Sorry Cuzz!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp-Z-EKJaZI

LMAO!!! That was from many years ago and NOT on Military Hill LOL.

 

[kwikgren]

Post deleted by author.

 

[r/l groomer]

Wasn't there a thread earlier this season about off trail abuse that got delated, just wandering. Not looking to cause a stur. I don't want this one to be on the same route. Good to get it out there about issue with off trail problems every where.
Howie

 

[Dave_B]

There was but, it was by the original posters request.

 

[440_chazz]

Put some hedgehogs on that hill.

 

[ranlam]

Why do some riders have to show people how much they show off? In town, ROW on highways, private property? I would guess its cause they don't know where to go, which means find someone who does or stay on trail. Your putting pictures into the motorized sports natzie's cameras as proof, not good. These people adamantly hate us even though they log on to this site.

 

[favoritos]

Unfortunately, if you aren't on guard 24-7, riders will find their way onto these hills. And someone has to pay for law enforcement to baby sit these grown up idiots. Like it or not, the glorification of mountain sledding (boondocking, sidehilling, etc) as well as ATVing has certainly helped to increase the impact in these problem areas. It is a little ironic that one of the big motivators in the form of self-promotion through media (GoPro's, YouTube, SnowCentral, etc.) turns out to be a potential pitfall for some of these riders.

It would be nice and convenient to believe that it is only the villains who are trespassing and doing property damage. I've noticed on some of the more professional hill climbing video productions of late that the producers are careful not to show summit shots. Why do you suppose that is? It could be they don't want to reveal their secret locations, or could it be that they themselves don't have actual permission to be riding there. In all probability both are true.

The sad thing is that there are a lot of responsible riders, and the old concept of don't ask, don't tell with regards to off trail riding kind of worked if done with discretion. Now this

Interesting and insightful post.

I want to see this sport survive for all riders, but the off trail stuff that is unsanctioned is really hurting a number of riding areas all over the Midwest. I wonder how it is in other parts of the country?

 

[kwikgren]

These people adamantly hate us even though they log on to this site.

While somehow hoping that this is not in reference to me, I will assume the worst for the sake of argument here.

First of all, I try very hard not to hate anyone. Ever. However, I do hate what people do sometimes without consideration for others.

You don't know me, just like I don't know you. We can make assumptions, but that's all they are. I am a hard working, honest, kind-hearted person who does not feel obligated to give a ton of respect to people who aren't.

Although I no longer ride snowmachines for sport, they are still a very important part of my life. I respect the many responsible riders that exist out there, including some of the thrill seekers. I get it.

It would be easy for people to label me as a tree hugger because I am a strong advocate of clean air, clean water, soil conservation, and wisely managed forests. But I believe in hunting, fishing, farming, and logging. So does the slur really apply just because I refuse to advocate complete and total disregard for the environment?

The reason I log onto this site is because I am a snow lover who lives in snow country and snowmobiling has an impact on my life - both positively and negatively. I am hoping to offer something useful to the argument, even if that means being brutally honest from time to time, which might be uncomfortable to those who live in a shroud of secrecy.

Back to the topic of off trail riding. Part of the problem lies in the fact that there seems to be a lack of understanding of where it is O.K. to ride. There is a lot of hush, hush, wink, wink, change the subject, going on around here. A bigger part of the problem are the self-empowered renegade riders who could care less about anyone else and try to wreak as much havoc as they possibly can. To say that it is only a handful of riders is a bit of a stretch seeing the negative impact is so widespread and epidemic. I don't have an easy answer. But being honest about the situation is a good place to start.

 

[snobinge]

While somehow hoping that this is not in reference to me, I will assume the worst for the sake of argument here.

First of all, I try very hard not to hate anyone. Ever. However, I do hate what people do sometimes without consideration for others.

You don't know me, just like I don't know you. We can make assumptions, but that's all they are. I am a hard working, honest, kind-hearted person who does not feel obligated to give a ton of respect to people who aren't.

Although I no longer ride snowmachines for sport, they are still a very important part of my life. I respect the many responsible riders that exist out there, including some of the thrill seekers. I get it.

It would be easy for people to label me as a tree hugger because I am a strong advocate of clean air, clean water, soil conservation, and wisely managed forests. But I believe in hunting, fishing, farming, and logging. So does the slur really apply just because I refuse to advocate complete and total disregard for the environment?

The reason I log onto this site is because I am a snow lover who lives in snow country and snowmobiling has an impact on my life - both positively and negatively. I am hoping to offer something useful to the argument, even if that means being brutally honest from time to time, which might be uncomfortable to those who live in a shroud of secrecy.

Back to the topic of off trail riding. Part of the problem lies in the fact that there seems to be a lack of understanding of where it is O.K. to ride. There is a lot of hush, hush, wink, wink, change the subject, going on around here. A bigger part of the problem are the self-empowered renegade riders who could care less about anyone else and try to wreak as much havoc as they possibly can. To say that it is only a handful of riders is a bit of a stretch seeing the negative impact is so widespread and epidemic. I don't have an easy answer. But being honest about the situation is a good place to start.

I think it is good to have those like kwikgrin posting on this site. It is a nice reality check of what snowmobiling is up against and what we need to do as ambassadors of the sport. Unfortunately the offenders like those mentioned in the thread are probably not active members of this site. I know I am making a generalization, but I feel that most off-trail enthusiasts that are active members of this site are educated as far as where off-trail riding is permitted. With that said, all of us have stumbled upon private property on accident. It is all about how you handle it when you do!

 

[steve_in_il]

I spoke with Ron Yesney yesterday after reading this and seeing the reaction about "mountain sleds" I work with Ron often, ride with Ron and know him well he is very passionate about our sports and works so hard for us to have and keep the trails we do and I hated to see the reaction towards him. He is just human and I think he just shot out an email (like we all have done) with out checking to see if it was "politically correct" The guy was just reaching out for some help!

The email was sent to MSA for them to post about the problem because it has become a real BIG problem! There are people who live up here who don't want any kind of motorized sports anywhere! They go out of their way to find these problem areas and use them in their case of "motorized sports ruin our land" There are pictures from the latest "hill climbing" on December 28 that the non-motorized people took (yup they were there and saw) they put this on Ron's desk and now he needs to fix the problem!

I hate to say this, but, it is ruining some areas and we need to help stop this!

Everyone needs to look at the big picture, it builds a case against snowmobiling and ATV's and they are in jeopardy! Help stop it before we lose it!

There are videos and pictures from Youtube and Facebook where these riders of the "hill" posted them! Thank goodness sometimes friends of the posters see these videos and realize it is wrong and pass the info on to someone who might do something about it. Be that person! If you see it, help stop it, talk to the guys or girls, educate them, make a difference!

Ok off my soap box now

mrsrunningbear very eloquently said what I had tried to say (albeit with a more bull in the china shop approach) on the "other" thread on this issue. We are all snowmobiliers. Doesn't matter if you are riding a Kitty Cat....or a 162" "Mountain" sled and issues such as this WILL and DO affect us all. Thank you for a really well thought out and "spot on" post!

 

[kwikgren]

Unfortunately the offenders like those mentioned in the thread are probably not active members of this site.

That suggests that more education and public information, backed up by increased law enforcement might be needed. From what I know about riding in Alaska, it seems like things there are more open and honest about where to ride, and law enforcement is focused on the more extreme violators. Unfortunately we have a much smaller riding area around here, so the problems are more concentrated.

 

[mrsrunningbear]

While somehow hoping that this is not in reference to me, I will assume the worst for the sake of argument here.

First of all, I try very hard not to hate anyone. Ever. However, I do hate what people do sometimes without consideration for others.

You don't know me, just like I don't know you. We can make assumptions, but that's all they are. I am a hard working, honest, kind-hearted person who does not feel obligated to give a ton of respect to people who aren't.

Although I no longer ride snowmachines for sport, they are still a very important part of my life. I respect the many responsible riders that exist out there, including some of the thrill seekers. I get it.

It would be easy for people to label me as a tree hugger because I am a strong advocate of clean air, clean water, soil conservation, and wisely managed forests. But I believe in hunting, fishing, farming, and logging. So does the slur really apply just because I refuse to advocate complete and total disregard for the environment?

The reason I log onto this site is because I am a snow lover who lives in snow country and snowmobiling has an impact on my life - both positively and negatively. I am hoping to offer something useful to the argument, even if that means being brutally honest from time to time, which might be uncomfortable to those who live in a shroud of secrecy.

Back to the topic of off trail riding. Part of the problem lies in the fact that there seems to be a lack of understanding of where it is O.K. to ride. There is a lot of hush, hush, wink, wink, change the subject, going on around here. A bigger part of the problem are the self-empowered renegade riders who could care less about anyone else and try to wreak as much havoc as they possibly can. To say that it is only a handful of riders is a bit of a stretch seeing the negative impact is so widespread and epidemic. I don't have an easy answer. But being honest about the situation is a good place to start.

It is not you kwikgren being referred to by ranlam, it is the "non-motorized" people looking to build a case against snowmobilers/motorized, they are on here looking to get information

snobinge I also know for a fact, an offender who posted a video on FB is active on this site and hopefully they will realize it's not good, get a little education from this post and not go there anymore. Hopefully others will learn and not go their either

mrsrunningbear very eloquently said what I had tried to say (albeit with a more bull in the china shop approach) on the "other" thread on this issue. We are all snowmobiliers. Doesn't matter if you are riding a Kitty Cat....or a 162" "Mountain" sled and issues such as this WILL and DO affect us all. Thank you for a really well thought out and "spot on" post!

Thank you Steve and John and Skylar! You never know how something is going to turn out after you hit the post button and I sure was surprised when I started the thread. I work very hard for these trails so my passion flows over in cases like this. These non-motorized people sure know how to build cases and make big stinks...we need to watch out and try to correct these problems before they do

 

[classicchick]

Thank you Ms.runningbear for your posts. I have noticed this "abusive" off-trail riding for several years...it gets worse each year as more people become attracted to the experience.
As a snowmobiler, riding by, I have cringed to think that it might be seen by any "environmental activists". My thoughts were...it's only a matter of time before the environmentalists are
not going to tolerate this. Now there are pictures brought to the desk of the DNR asking that something be done. It is a problem that is not going to go away. It needs to be looked at
honestly and steps taken to mitigate damage. Should a stern warning about it be attached to the trail permit that everyone is supposed to buy? It should reach everyone snowmobiling
in Michigan. Perhaps some very definite fines need to be established for abusive riding. I'm sure all the clubs have discussed this, maybe there could be a "summit" with all clubs,
dnr, forest service, general public, environmental representatives.. meeting to try to draw up a plan to start moving in the direction of managing, not ignoring this problem. As local riders
we have discontinued riding on neighbors properties even tho we have permission so we don't make tracks, because we have heard very nice people say...oh, we just followed some tracks
we saw. It seems to be common practice for sledders to see a track and go off exploring in that direction.
As far as Military Hill...wasn't there a pic last spring of someone who stopped below the hilll that was fenced (truck & trailer in pic) and posted pics here on riding on the hilll....now that is arrogant!
Tracking visible areas is like blowing smoke in the environmentalists faces....not a wise thing.
Whose going to take charge and get something done? Looks like the environmentalists have a very capable leader who know where to go to get action!
Thanks for keeping us in the loop of this very critical issue.

 

[Hoosier]

I wish they would bring back the three inch registration numbers again.

This is exactly what needs to be done. It won't fix everything obviously but being able to positively identify a snowmobile is critical. The MSA should absolutely push for this. I'm sure there will be an outcry from many with sweet graphics and wraps, etc. but how else can you catch someone?

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

we have discontinued riding on neighbors properties even tho we have permission so we don't make tracks, because we have heard very nice people say...oh, we just followed some tracks we saw.

For as many years as I've been sledding I've been able to leave from my farm and ride through miles of private land of my neighbors (with written permission) and access either the groomed trails or the federal land to the south. To do this I rode on their trails and opened/closed their gates, I always stayed on the trail and treated the land better than my own.

Up until 2 year ago never once did other people follow my tracks from the south end heading towards me as the gates and no trespassing signs scared them off. Two winters ago I quit using this route because everybody and their brother thought that because there were tracks that it was ok to open gates and ride through private land, in the process they saw fit to carve up the nice big openings (some of which are hay fields, others are replanted trees). They also decided that they should "boondock" through the neighbors woods and climb the hills going down into the river valley (tearing all the way down to the dirt because the hills are near vertical and rarely have much snow on them). They also made it to my farm and opened my gates and rode around the fields then left when they got to the house, forgetting to shut the gates on the way out (luckily the cattle didn't notice the open gates before I did). Over that winter I have dozens and dozens of pictures off a trail cam of different sledders trespassing like its no big deal (too bad none of the registration numbers are legible in the pictures).

Needless to say I still have permission to use that route but don't because doing so just invites a bunch of people to trespass and destroy someones property.

 

[mezz]

The registration numbers would help a little, maybe. Keep in mind, those rules varied by state on size & placement, so not a cure all. Bottom line, responsible riders are generally not the problem, we are always going to have a few rogue riders out there no matter what, whether on an ATV, SxS, Boat, Jet Ski, Motorcycle. If you see it happening, as Mrs. RB said, stop them & correct them. We have to police ourselves.-Mezz

 

[ranlam]

While somehow hoping that this is not in reference to me, I will assume the worst for the sake of argument here.

Wow, please dont assume the worst, bad for your health. No I was not referring to you or anybody directly. LOL

Thanks Mrsrunningbear.

I got pictures today of awesome backcountry, my only tracks are snowshoes though!

 

[crispyknite]

I think you should put up video cams that link to your phone and catch,em in the act that way. The DNR and the snowmobile club should team up then the word well get out as people start getting fines.