Need Help! Framers/Builders, please help!

jpsted

New member
I discovered a condition with my 5 yr old home today that I'd like to understand from framers or builders as to whether it's a "normal" condition, or something that should have been remedied at construction.

As mentioned above, I purchased my home new 5 yrs ago from a local builder. The home had a warranty that is now expired, but I've discovered a condition that does not seem normal to me and I'd like to call the builder to resolve but need advice.

The past two winters we've noticed a mouse problem in our unfinished basement, but nothing in the upper two levels, main floor and second floor. So today, I set out to try and find out how they were getting in and thought I could seal the area...assumed it was a gap around a vent, pipe, etc. But what I found was even more startling.

I discovered that (forgive my terms, I'm not a builder but hope you understand what I mean) my subfloor platform on at least two sides of the home extends by 1-2 inches beyond the sill plate (from the exterior of the home you can actually extend your fingers up and under the siding and sheathing, into this gap and into the interior of the basement). I pulled the insulation back that was placed between the floor joists and on the top of the foundation in the basement and light comes flooding into the area between the joists. In both cases which I discovered (and i did not search the entire perimeter) this occurs in a corner...I assume the subfloor platform was extended over in an effort to square the corner. But if this were the case, should the sill plate not have extended out as well?

Is this something that would be considered a building defect vs. a warranty item and perhaps something I can hold the builder, even 5 years later, responsible to remedy.

In either way, what is the best way to remedy the issue? I began to spray the can foam insulation in several of the areas, but quickly realized the gaps in some cases were too large and in some areas I couldn't get the can and nozel to fit.

All advice/suggestions are welcome!

Thanks
 

jpsted

New member
Re above, I used the term subfloor platform, but I guess what I really meant that are the joists and header/rim joists extend beyond the sill plate.

Hope that helps to understand
 

terrys

New member
Call your local building inspector and ask him---there has to be a building code covering this.Where do you live?
 

jpsted

New member
Live in waukesha county. I checked it out further and the 1-2" i described above isn't too accurate. there is a gap large enough to stick fingers in though...1/2-3/4".

Understandably poor construction. And unfortunately in the price range this house was in, you wouldn't expect that...also from a fairly reputable builder in the entire SE WI area.
 
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lenny

Guest
I have read you problem a few times and I think I understand your issue. The problem was probably due to the concrete foundation walls out of square. The builder had to build the home square in order to accommodate the blueprint. When I was on a framming crew we often would find the concrete walls out of square but not as bad as you are describing. It may or may not be a structural problem depending on joist size. Often walls cantilever(extend beyond wall) to accept a bay window, walk out, or even and entire exterior wall. My last house I cantilevered the back wall 20" to extend the depth of the second floor for more footage. The problem right now is that this cantilever (concrete error) was not part of the originally design and therefore not built correctly. I sheet and r-board cantilevered areas to prevent critters and insulate for air infiltration. personally I don't believe you have a serious structural problem but none the less the exterior wall should be sitting on the concrete to accept the load of the walls and the roof. Now the joists are taking the brunt where the box sill is off the green sill plate. Ideally the builder should have not accepted the bogus concrete job and not built upon but maybe he did the Crete also so a big loss could have been an issue.

Remedy- rip down some osb or plywood and nail it on. If there is not room to do this on the exterior than go into basement and cut some solid blocking and in stall between joist bay. probably need to use 2x8 so you can get a swing at the nails or get a nail gun in there.

If you wanna find out if the concrete is out of square, go down in the basement and pull some measurements on parallel walls and see if they are the same, I bet they're not.

If I didn't understand your problem correctly than I am way off. call me if need be,

Lenny 906-883-3137
 

propjockey

New member
lenny is on the right track.

However, after you nail OSB or Styrofoam on the outside, buy some gutter flashing, bend it to a full 90 degrees and tuck it up behind the siding and push up to the OSB or Styrofoam. It'll keep the critters or rain from eating through.

Chances are, you're in a a home made with wall panels. The "Deck" must be framed to the size on the print or else the walls won't fit properly... Since they almost always are done before the deck is even framed. You can "bury" an out-of-square foundation on a custom framed home, it just sucks when you get to the roof and things aren't parallel or square. Enter roof trusses...
happy.gif


Best of luck,

-J-
 

jpsted

New member
Lenny,

Based on your feedback, I think you do understand the issue. The two areas where I found the problem are not the result of a cantilevered window, floor, etc. If you could see it, I believe it should be obvious that the header or rim joists should have been flush to the sill plate and foundation.

The foundation is not poured concrete but rather, block. Prior to buying this house I had moved from another part of the country where I had never seen a block foundation. However, in Waukesha Co., WI, I quickly found it was common among builders (I'm guessing it's cheaper than pouring concrete???). I did measure in two places as you suggested and do find about a 1/2" difference in about a 24' run.

Applying OSB or styro to the exterior may prove more difficult than your alternate suggestion of installing blocking in the joist bays. A 2x8 width is sufficient to close the gap.

I'm going to call the builder Monday and see if I can get him to come out and look at the problem firsthand. I guess I'll see then how motivated/interested he is to correct the issue and what advice he gives to solve.

I also agree with you that it probably doesn't pose any real structural problem, but when you spend over a half mill on a house, I guess I expected more, or at least not to find elementary errors such as this.

Thanks again guys for the help.
 

mikeh906

New member
By all means call the builder first! He needs to see and address the problem, my guess is he will send a guy over right away to correct the problem.
 

snoseekr2

New member
jpsted, lenny pretty much hit the nail on the head.I have been in the trades, for over 20yrs. and used to build million dollar custom built homes it happens all the time, but should have been caught and fixed right away! Like mikeh906 said call the biulder, and if he is reputable, will solve the problem right away.Usually block foundations are more square than poured ones. If the builder will not do anything for you, let me know, and would try to come up there and fix the prob. for you!
 

jpsted

New member
Thanks Snoseekr, I appreciate the offer and help. I'll keep the thread updated after I talk with the builder.
 

propjockey

New member
jpsted-

If I were you, I would get a hold of a structural engineer first and get his opinion. If your rim joist is hanging 2" over the sill plate, you have more than half your load bearing wall sitting on NOTHING! At the very least, you should install "squash blocks" ( http://www.webjoist.com/Product_Guide_Joist/WEB-i%20Page%2008.pdf). These are normally only used with I-Joists, but if your rim joist is not on the plate....YOU NEED THEM!

Personally, if I paid over $500K for a house and it had a CMU foundation, I'd be pissed. Moreover, a house of that cost/size/caliber, has no business being built that poorly. Sounds like another case of "Hey, I got a pick-up truck and a wheelbarrow, I MUST BE A CONTRACTOR!"

Use the leverage of the structural engineers report to get your builder to address this issue. If he doesn't, you have a lawsuit on your hands and the loser will pay. Unfortunately, there is very little that can be done at this point to correct the structural issue(short of maybe bolting angle iron to the block for support). This should have been caught by the framing foreman AND The building inspector.

You are entitled to some sort of compensation from one or both of them and make sure you stand your ground. There is absolutely no excuse for this and it pissing me off that it continues to happen to good people.

With any luck, this poor economy will weed out the so-called "builders" that were going around making these kind of errors. After being a third generation builder for 20 years, I can honestly say that we NEVER left errors in construction of any structural magnitude. I loath these pickup truck/wheelbarrow guys and hope they all lose their own business' over it. Fuhkrz.

A home is typically the most expensive investment a person will make in their lives, and for someone to provide that to us at a profit means they should be qualified to do so. It always pissed me off that the roofer needs to be licensed, but the general/carpenter contractor doesn't.


Best of luck and stand your ground. Your problem is "wrong" and it must be corrected.


-J-
 

jpsted

New member
Thanks Prop. I over stated the 2" overhang, more likely 3/4".

Prior to purchasing the home I paid to have the home inspected. I'll have to dig out the information as I'm not certain of the credentials this engineer would have possessed or the types of issues that he should have been responsible for discovering.

I'm going to at least start with the builder and get a feel for their attitude towards providing a remedy. If I don't sense cooperation I will quickly escalate this to other agencies and if necessary take legal action.

I tend to believe the builder will cooperate, I'm just debating what my expectations of him should be. I was planning on asking him for something written as to the likely cause of the error and his proposal to remedy. That way I can have reviewed for second opinion. Also considered hiring an engineer of my choice as Prop suggested and asking the builder to pay for the independent opinion and possible solution. My guess is they'll not want to go this route, incur the expense and perhaps have to deal with an opinion they may not like.

I'm going to try and get some pics to show you guys.

Thanks again for all the suggestions...keep them coming if you think of anything additional.

Regards
 
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lenny

Guest
jpsted, the problem area, are the floor joists running 90 degrees to concrete wall or are they running parallel to this rim joist that is off the sill plate. If the floor joists are running parallel with the rim joist that is off the sill plate than as projockey stated, that's a problem. If they are running 90 degrees to the rim joists in question than at least you have this rim joist fastened to the floor joists which would carry the load because they are sitting on the sill plate,but running parallel could be a very serious issue that would for sure need to be rectified. Wow, I'd love to see some pics of this

A retangular typical 2 story commonly has the floor joists running front to back because the front to back span is lesser than the width so on the front and back walls, the floor joists would be on the sill plate and the side walls the rim joist/ box sill sits directly on the sill also. Got any pictures?
 

bkcountry

Member
The bottom line is the work that was done is poor, If he has any reputation in the area of being a good builder he will fix the problem.
You do not have a structural issue, but the downside is there is no great fix for your problem. in my opinion whatever they are going to do will be a bandaid at best. Good luck, I'd love to here how the builder responds
 

jpsted

New member
Lenny,

The joists run parallel to the concrete wall. The last joist, closest to the concrete wall, falls 4" inside the wall. From there there are tails...I don't know what to call them...joists that are cut 14" and run perpendicular to the joist just inside the wall. These tails are what hang over the sill plate.

I've taken some pics and will try to upload for you to see to what I am referring.

Thanks
 

jpsted

New member
The first picture shows the joists running parallel to the concrete wall in question, which is the wall in the right of the picture. You can also see the "tails" to which I refer and that are 14 inches long. When I looked closer at the tails, they are are attached by one penny nail in the top and bottom, no brackets or anything on the inside of the joists. Seems an odd way to do the last 14 inches of the wall.

120504.jpg


The second pic is shot inside one of the joist bays...you can see the pink styro which is on the outside, thus visible due to the gap. The gap in that particular area is about 1/2 inch.

120505.jpg
 
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lenny

Guest
well, it's good to see the 14" "tails" in there. They sit on the sill plate and receive load from the above exterior wall. Is it right? Not be design but probably adequate in my opinion. It "seems" to be a reasonable fix to an unfortunate error

The reason you see a few nails to attach the "tails" to the I-joists is because the vertical part of the joist is a osb type material which is not great for biting power of nails. Honestly that doesn't seem to concerning, again, in my opinion.

Basically I see the "tails" acting as a "cantilever" in all practicalness. In LaSalle County Illinois, code says the amount of cantilever on the outside has to be 3 times greater extending in on the inside if my memory serve me correctly. We know you don't have an actual cantilevered floor plan but the same concept applies. It just seems to be an practical way to describe the situation.

This wall is probably NOT carrying a roof load? Meaning the roof rafters are running the same direction as the floor joists. Wall studs sit on top of floor joists directly and roof rafters sit on top on wall studs to directly carry loads and disperse to proper lumber dimension (typical framming)

If I were an inspector I would probably see the "tails" as adequate support.

I am at the end of my abilities to offer further insight as this now gets into engineering details (I am no engineer) and I hope you can get some good expert advise that serves both you and the builder with no compromise to either party. I hope I was of some assistance.

Good luck bud and keep us posted as to the outcome!
 
L

lenny

Guest
oh yea, you have I joist floor joist which are engineered and considered to be superior in many ways. Seeing them makes me think the builder did things to build a higher quality house and often you will see 2x6 exterior walls in this "higher end" homes. If so, the greater wall thickness offsets the "error" to some degree because more of it sitting on the "tails" which in turn is on the sill plate and ultimately on the block wall instead of what we were thinking earlier when we didn't know the "tails" were in place.

Without those tails, the structure would be compromised for sure as propjockey noted.

Sorry for all the babbling but thought that was worth mentioning
 
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