One of Ford Motor Company's South American Plants

[qber]

Outsourcing has never lowered prices for americans. The prices have steadily risen for all the outsourced products (e.g. North Face, Skidoo, Articat snowmobile jackets) - nothing has gotten cheaper. Who is profiting? The tools you buy from China look like crap from a 1910 foundery. Your levis from indonesia or wherever don't last anymore - the belt loops tear off and the metal button falls apart (and not because I'm getting fat). Who has benefited.
I'm not a union member and am certainly not into union bashing when the employee at the top, called a CEO, draws a salary that may be equal to the 1000 or so jobs he outsources.
The people in India, Indonesia and China do not pay our taxes and the CEOs who do such a fine job of outsourcing don't contribute much either - so we in the middle get stuck for all these schenagins.

 

[mxz_chris]

Outsourcing has never lowered prices for americans. The prices have steadily risen for all the outsourced products (e.g. North Face, Skidoo, Articat snowmobile jackets) - nothing has gotten cheaper. Who is profiting? The tools you buy from China look like crap from a 1910 foundery. Your levis from indonesia or wherever don't last anymore - the belt loops tear off and the metal button falls apart (and not because I'm getting fat). Who has benefited.
I'm not a union member and am certainly not into union bashing when the employee at the top, called a CEO, draws a salary that may be equal to the 1000 or so jobs he outsources.
The people in India, Indonesia and China do not pay our taxes and the CEOs who do such a fine job of outsourcing don't contribute much either - so we in the middle get stuck for all these schenagins.

I am torn on this one. I have been the owner, and the employee. Unfortunately, the CEO has a job to do. He is hired by the Board of Directors, and his job is to increase profit, that's it. If a CEO increases profits from 10mil. to 100mil. dollars, than he deserves a 10mil. bonus, doesn't he? I understand, without the employees there are no profits. But the reality is, most employees are replaceable. Most. A really good CEO is worth their weight in gold.
On the other hand, there are plenty of CEO's that have driven a company into the ground, and come out a millionaire, so, as I said, I'm torn.

 

[tealracing16]

AllI know is that there is no way you can tell me that anything made in South America is going to have the same quality/fit and finish as something made here. You can teach these people how to do things quickly, like robots, but there is a certain finesse and pride that they just don't have. Go out and take a look at some of the Nissans made in Mexico and you will be appalled at simple things like the lineup of the body panels. You can only imagine what goes in to the rest of the car.

Honestly when I worked at a Toyota dealership you could tell a huge difference between cars made in Japan and made in the USA. The ones made here looked "off", there lines weren't the best, rattles, just little things that add up to huge problems. I'm all for buying American, I own two vehicles, but I will firmly disagree that cars made in the US are better than the ones made in Japan. I understand you were talking about South America, but its just my 2 cents. Also, when the CEO of Toyota had to apologize he took it very personally that his name sakes company was doing something dangerous. When the Big 3 had to go to congress all they had to do was answer some silly questions, they never once apologized for there actions.

A little background: I worked in a plant that made piston rings for large diameter diesel engines. My part was for the Cummins in the Ram, the smallest ring we made and I was laid off due to the economy.

Again my 2 cents, I'm not trying to start something, just stuff I've noticed.

 

[Professor PC]

since everyones in a tither aboot this maybe i should point out that this was like 10 years ago and started being built on CLITONS watch...the thanx go to him and MONICA....BTW...where was everone when this was happening....noone was mad then so i don't get it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_factories

 

[mxz_chris]

since everyones in a tither aboot this maybe i should point out that this was like 10 years ago and started being built on CLITONS watch...the thanx go to him and MONICA....BTW...where was everone when this was happening....noone was mad then so i don't get it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_factories

I was mad. I watched my profit sharing go down as soon as NAFTA was enacted. My company had to hire an entire department for compliance.

 

[dcsnomo]

Outsourcing has never lowered prices for americans. The prices have steadily risen for all the outsourced products (e.g. North Face, Skidoo, Articat snowmobile jackets) - nothing has gotten cheaper. Who is profiting? The tools you buy from China look like crap from a 1910 foundery. Your levis from indonesia or wherever don't last anymore - the belt loops tear off and the metal button falls apart (and not because I'm getting fat). Who has benefited.
I'm not a union member and am certainly not into union bashing when the employee at the top, called a CEO, draws a salary that may be equal to the 1000 or so jobs he outsources.
The people in India, Indonesia and China do not pay our taxes and the CEOs who do such a fine job of outsourcing don't contribute much either - so we in the middle get stuck for all these schenagins.

I'm not sure that you can prove that "outsourcing has never lowered prices for Americans." Think about that next time you go to WalMart. How much is a pair of Levis at WalMart? $19.96! That's less than I paid as a teenager, which was 40 years ago. How much is a lawnmower at WalMart? $99! It goes on and on and on.

America, due to it's lack of manufacturing, thrives on readily available cheap consumer goods. Personal consumer goods spending is about 42% of GDP (some studies claim 70%, but 42% removes health care and other "imputed" costs). The US has 21 sq ft of retail space per person vs 1 sq ft for France and Italy, 2.5 sq ft for Mexico. This overly merchandised retail climate exerts tremendous downward pressure on pricing, and the way a consumer goods manufacturer reacts is to cut costs through outsourcing. Why does it work? Because the American consumer is very pleased to buy Levis at $19.96 a pair, even though they are of poor quality and wear out much faster than they used to. Why does it not work? Because your neighbor who used to work at the Levis plant in now laid off.

Outsourcing, while a nightmare for American workers, is a dream come true for an economy where almost half the spending comes from consumer goods. Poor quality blue jeans must be replaced, cell phones are outdated, laptops quit working, lawnmowers die in 3 years, tools break. And what do we do, demand quality? Nope! Throw it away, go to WalMart and buy another! It's cheaper! And, we can't stop, because if we do, we go into a recession.

The CEO's job is to "maximize shareholder value." If you can increase volume (low price placement at big box stores) and decrease costs (outsourcing) to hold or increase margin then shareholder value increases. And as long as we keep buying the $19.96 Levis and the $99 lawnmowers they will keep outsourcing them.

And we will continue to buy them because that's what we want. Cheap stuff, big selection, nearby store. Outsourced.

Tough way to build a middle class.

 

[mxz_chris]

I'm not sure that you can prove that "outsourcing has never lowered prices for Americans." Think about that next time you go to WalMart. How much is a pair of Levis at WalMart? $19.96! That's less than I paid as a teenager, which was 40 years ago. How much is a lawnmower at WalMart? $99! It goes on and on and on.

America, due to it's lack of manufacturing, thrives on readily available cheap consumer goods. Personal consumer goods spending is about 42% of GDP (some studies claim 70%, but 42% removes health care and other "imputed" costs). The US has 21 sq ft of retail space per person vs 1 sq ft for France and Italy, 2.5 sq ft for Mexico. This overly merchandised retail climate exerts tremendous downward pressure on pricing, and the way a consumer goods manufacturer reacts is to cut costs through outsourcing. Why does it work? Because the American consumer is very pleased to buy Levis at $19.96 a pair, even though they are of poor quality and wear out much faster than they used to. Why does it not work? Because your neighbor who used to work at the Levis plant in now laid off.

Outsourcing, while a nightmare for American workers, is a dream come true for an economy where almost half the spending comes from consumer goods. Poor quality blue jeans must be replaced, cell phones are outdated, laptops quit working, lawnmowers die in 3 years, tools break. And what do we do, demand quality? Nope! Throw it away, go to WalMart and buy another! It's cheaper! And, we can't stop, because if we do, we go into a recession.

The CEO's job is to "maximize shareholder value." If you can increase volume (low price placement at big box stores) and decrease costs (outsourcing) to hold or increase margin then shareholder value increases. And as long as we keep buying the $19.96 Levis and the $99 lawnmowers they will keep outsourcing them.

And we will continue to buy them because that's what we want. Cheap stuff, big selection, nearby store. Outsourced.

Tough way to build a middle class.

Well said. I demand quality, and will pay for it. Yes, it costs more up front, but my grandkids will be using my tools when I'm dead and gone, just as I have many of my grandfathers tools. I just wish everyone thought this way.
Case in point, I went to Menards to get a pruning shear on a Sunday. All they had was a cheap one. I asked if I could spend more to get a good one, there wasn't even one offered. I bought the cheap one, broke it that day, and returned it. I bought a good one the next day, and vowed never to buy anything but fertilizer and lumber from Menards.

 

[dcsnomo]

since everyones in a tither aboot this maybe i should point out that this was like 10 years ago and started being built on CLITONS watch...the thanx go to him and MONICA....BTW...where was everone when this was happening....noone was mad then so i don't get it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_factories

I am not a Clinton supporter, but a little historical clarification is in order here:

**********
Following diplomatic negotiations dating back to 1991 between the three nations, the leaders met in San Antonio, Texas, on December 17, 1992, to sign NAFTA. U.S. President George H.W. Bush, Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney and Mexican President Carlos Salinas, each responsible for spearheading and promoting the agreement, ceremonially signed it. The agreement then needed to be ratified by each nation's legislative or parliamentary branch.
Before the negotiations were finalized, Bill Clinton came into office in the U.S. and Kim Campbell in Canada, and before the agreement became law, Jean Chrétien had taken office in Canada.



In the U.S., Bush, who had worked to "fast track" the signing prior to the end of his term, ran out of time and had to pass the required ratification and signing into law to incoming president Bill Clinton. Prior to sending it to the House of Representatives, Clinton introduced clauses to protect American workers and allay the concerns of many House members. It also required U.S. partners to adhere to environmental practices and regulations similar to its own. The ability to enforce these clauses, especially with Mexico, and with much consideration and emotional discussion the House of Representatives approved NAFTA on November 17, 1993, by a vote of 234 to 200. The agreement's supporters included 132 Republicans and 102 Democrats. NAFTA passed the Senate 61-38. Clinton signed it into law on December 8, 1993; it went into effect on January 1, 1994.
**************
NAFTA was a bi-partisan effort. It was signed by George HW Bush, implemented by Clinton on a bi-partisan vote with more Republicans voting for than Democrats.

 

[anonomoose]

I think we hashed this one out before. NAFTA is north American agreement involving Canada the USA, and Mexico.

Favored Nation Status is the one that opened the door to Asia, and this is where the biggest problem lies.

Canada's standard of living is similar to ours so there isn't much give up there except they are more liberal and have the benefit of government health care which the manufacturers don't have to pay, and Mexico well, you get what you pay for there..., lack of government, crime and corruption...the list goes on.

But we live in a world where our capitalistic government is willing to gamble on new ventures. Are we now paying the price for those Jeans that are bit cheaper? Pruning shears that are made with inferior materials, and poor heat treated metals?

Kmart sunk it's teeth into this import business first, and they took Shakespeare reels to Asia and made a "knock off" that they could sell for 1/2 the price. You looked at both reels and said, geez...they look the same. Well, after buying one and using it for half a day, you realized that it was no Shakespeare reel and it fell apart. But Kmart made them for $.50 apiece and marked them up 1000% and they could afford to take the reel back and give you another which did the same thing....so you eventually threw it in the trash and chocked up the purchase as a learning experience. Did Kmart have to cut corners that far to make such an inferior product since they already had huge advantages of cheap labor? In my book the answer is no...but hey, wasn't the CEO kickin butt? He was making money hand over fist and it took a long while before people took note. Right now, they are dead in the water and only need a fork put in them to tell when they are done.

Somewhere along the line here, CEO's lost track of some of the important things. Employees were/are expendible...profit is king. Longevity is not something you worried about. And Americans are slowly learning that buying jeans from a retailer over seas does NOT keep your neighbor in work, and that means that eventually YOU end up paying to keep him on the dole, and his house is goin down hill because he can't afford to keep it up. That means your home value drops, and you pay more taxes, but hey...doesn't Toyota have a nice fit and finish??

Slowly but surely we will realize that price is NOT the most important thing, and that making sure your neighbor is working means YOU will continue to work, and that buying stuff from places that dump rat poison instead of sugar into ingredients, is not something you want to buy into.

(I bought fish back a month ago, while buyin oil at Wally world, and once I got it home, I saw in very fine print...where was my glasses....it was "imported from china". I took it back and haven't stepped back in wally world since...not that I did much before that anyway)

But I buy locally, and I won't buy a FORD if it is made in Mexico, and I don't care if it is cheaper or not....I look at content, and I inspect where it is made, and I buy Michigan when possible and American always...if that is possible, and so far it hasn't sent me to the poor house, or caused me any grief, and I hope that this catches on to more people and over time it won't matter if Wally World has it cheaper they won't be able to make the grade unless and until they stock their stores with stuff that doesn't fall apart in a week, or has rat poison in the paint, and made somewhere that has the same quality of life as we do.

But hey...that's just me...and go ahead and buy Jap stuff, if you feel you got a better deal, then go for it....but the big picture still will adjusted from time to time and eventually most of you guys will get it. Until then bona petite!

 

[mxz_chris]

I think we hashed this one out before. NAFTA is north American agreement involving Canada the USA, and Mexico.

Favored Nation Status is the one that opened the door to Asia, and this is where the biggest problem lies.

Canada's standard of living is similar to ours so there isn't much give up there except they are more liberal and have the benefit of government health care which the manufacturers don't have to pay, and Mexico well, you get what you pay for there..., lack of government, crime and corruption...the list goes on.

But we live in a world where our capitalistic government is willing to gamble on new ventures. Are we now paying the price for those Jeans that are bit cheaper? Pruning shears that are made with inferior materials, and poor heat treated metals?

Kmart sunk it's teeth into this import business first, and they took Shakespeare reels to Asia and made a "knock off" that they could sell for 1/2 the price. You looked at both reels and said, geez...they look the same. Well, after buying one and using it for half a day, you realized that it was no Shakespeare reel and it fell apart. But Kmart made them for $.50 apiece and marked them up 1000% and they could afford to take the reel back and give you another which did the same thing....so you eventually threw it in the trash and chocked up the purchase as a learning experience. Did Kmart have to cut corners that far to make such an inferior product since they already had huge advantages of cheap labor? In my book the answer is no...but hey, wasn't the CEO kickin butt? He was making money hand over fist and it took a long while before people took note. Right now, they are dead in the water and only need a fork put in them to tell when they are done.

Somewhere along the line here, CEO's lost track of some of the important things. Employees were/are expendible...profit is king. Longevity is not something you worried about. And Americans are slowly learning that buying jeans from a retailer over seas does NOT keep your neighbor in work, and that means that eventually YOU end up paying to keep him on the dole, and his house is goin down hill because he can't afford to keep it up. That means your home value drops, and you pay more taxes, but hey...doesn't Toyota have a nice fit and finish??

Slowly but surely we will realize that price is NOT the most important thing, and that making sure your neighbor is working means YOU will continue to work, and that buying stuff from places that dump rat poison instead of sugar into ingredients, is not something you want to buy into.

(I bought fish back a month ago, while buyin oil at Wally world, and once I got it home, I saw in very fine print...where was my glasses....it was "imported from china". I took it back and haven't stepped back in wally world since...not that I did much before that anyway)

But I buy locally, and I won't buy a FORD if it is made in Mexico, and I don't care if it is cheaper or not....I look at content, and I inspect where it is made, and I buy Michigan when possible and American always...if that is possible, and so far it hasn't sent me to the poor house, or caused me any grief, and I hope that this catches on to more people and over time it won't matter if Wally World has it cheaper they won't be able to make the grade unless and until they stock their stores with stuff that doesn't fall apart in a week, or has rat poison in the paint, and made somewhere that has the same quality of life as we do.

But hey...that's just me...and go ahead and buy Jap stuff, if you feel you got a better deal, then go for it....but the big picture still will adjusted from time to time and eventually most of you guys will get it. Until then bona petite!

Amen.

 

[united]

Chris
No safety glasses? No OSHA requirements and no child labor laws? No wonder your pricing is the same as China, you are using the same method of manufacture.


The picture of the secured wall at the plant looks a lot tamer than most walls you would have seen in the Motor City.

 

[mxz_chris]

Chris
No safety glasses? No OSHA requirements and no child labor laws? No wonder your pricing is the same as China, you are using the same method of manufacture.


The picture of the secured wall at the plant looks a lot tamer than most walls you would have seen in the Motor City.

Family business, you can use your kids like slaves when it's your business