producing existing domestic energy

[durphee]

Great thread! I am a Professor of Environmental Science at a small Community College in northern Illinois and this has become a required read for my students. I think the students will learn a lot about our oil issue from this. Both sides present a pretty logical and accurate view, just maybe different ways of getting to energy independence.

Just my $.02, energy independence is of vital importance. Whether it be from hydrogen, solar, battery powered, increased fuel efficiency of the internal combustion engine, ethanol, etc... This runs the gamet from job creation, military expenditures, terrorism, environmental issues, ans all the way to a moral issue. There is no one answer to solve the problem, just maybe "better" ways alleviate some symptoms of the problem.
The only main point I would like to make is when people "lump" individuals together into a classification. I am a proud environmentalist! Yet, i own and operate a 2003 F7 arctic cat (oh no!, a 2 cycle!), a 20 foot stingray speed boat, a 2005 Cadillac Escalade SUV, 3 four wheelers, and several other polluting devices. The extremists would crucify me on that but I enjoy and love the outdoors. Guess where i operate those aforementioned toys? Not downtown Chicago! I utilize our beautiful national, state and local parks and waterways. Not all environmentalists want to stop development, implode the economy, and make pollution a thing of the past. Speaking for myself, I just want decisions on policy to include the environment as part of the discussion.
So, when talking about environmentalists just be careful about what a true environmentalists stands for. Sound policy decisions, logical comprehensive planning for the future, and a balanced economic and environmental strategies. Now lets hope nature gives us abundant snow and a beautiful forest to ride in!

 

[lenny]

moose, I have finally come to understand just exactly where we see strongly different. I do not believe it is the place of the gov to make the decision of where to invest tax dollars. The United States is full of smart people who are looking to make money. If there is a good idea, you have the entire private sector, which is huge, to make decisions whether to back or not back. I mean look at fanny, fredie and the solar company who was backed with 500 mil, A BIG FAT BANKRUPT. The gov has a rather poor track record and needs to step back and stay within it's boundaries. Do you see how frustrated Americans are with the gov, its for a reason. The private sector has the means and ability to make good or bad decisions which has much less of an negative impact on the masses. We have a snowball effect and momentum is gaining, we need confidence and less intrusion

 

[lenny]

Durphee,,,you have indeed made a valid point about the stereotype many of us have, including myself, of environmentalists in general. Looks like my view has been swayed, thanks!

 

[anonomoose]

I agree with Durphee in that sound environemental policy does not have to be fanatical to be good for all of us and our grand kids. While there are those who would pollute and ravage at will without restrictions, often in the chase of almighty dollars, the vast majority of Americans do understand that we need to care about the environment and what we do impacts it.

In a nutshell, we can either ignore it, or we can make sane decisions which will move in that direction. That's it!

Lenny, we do differ....while I feel your frustrations, and understand why you feel that way, based upon some rather dumb decisions which probably were made for all the wrong reasons, we can't give up because they didn't do it right can we? We need to press on, and keep trying. And if that means that we make some errors along the way, by sponsoring some bad ideas, so be it. We need to keep looking and get off this train to HE!!....and datz dah way I sees it.

 

[lenny]

I agree with Durphee in that sound environemental policy does not have to be fanatical to be good for all of us and our grand kids. While there are those who would pollute and ravage at will without restrictions, often in the chase of almighty dollars, the vast majority of Americans do understand that we need to care about the environment and what we do impacts it.

In a nutshell, we can either ignore it, or we can make sane decisions which will move in that direction. That's it!

Lenny, we do differ....while I feel your frustrations, and understand why you feel that way, based upon some rather dumb decisions which probably were made for all the wrong reasons, we can't give up because they didn't do it right can we? We need to press on, and keep trying. And if that means that we make some errors along the way, by sponsoring some bad ideas, so be it. We need to keep looking and get off this train to HE!!....and datz dah way I sees it.

I believe it goes a bit deeper than simple "keep looking" sort of thinking. 10 years ago the US was devastated in a sense, I am referring to 9-11. We are a resilient country and and took it on the chin. We took action in the war against terror. Regardless of one's position concerning our response to 9-11, the effort is taxing financially and emotionally. The financial institution took a major dump which hits the heart of America to it's core (housing market, and all associated markets, huge!) Blow after blow we continue to struggle to get back on our feet but something is still missing, let me elaborate on my opinion. Being married with children, sometimes a family is not unified and as a result of emotion and attitude, the family unit suffers. Here's my point, the USofA is a divided nation, strongly divided and modeled with the greatest divide right in Washington as a spectacle for the world to see. Add 10 years of turmoil and what we have is chaos. Many people see the prior strong economy as a norm that set a standard in their life, which in turn adds to the turmoil of confusion. We have 2 administrations accumulating massive debt to historic proportions. It simply seems totally unreasonable to pursue this current path of increased spending when the stimulus recovery act has not produce the desired results. I understand adequate time is necessary but projections have passed and we continue to slump. All this adds to unfavorable public opinion and stifles optimism as I stated earlier. Now is not the time for experimentation but rather a more conservative approach to a troubled country. The gov is not listening to the people and continues to step forward when sometimes we need to step back, slow down and ride out a storm. With a hugely divided country, my position is as large of majority as the opposition so to not listen is costly. When is doubt or trouble, which we are right now, we ought to sit tight. I believe our country's response is knee jerk and political, mixed with special interest sweetening the pot if you know what I mean.


When the market tanks, the people with a more conservative portfolio have a greater stability thus your solid investment remains sustanible. So why would the gov invest in expensive tech at a critical time. I understand you think in the long run it will pay off and I believe that may be true but in the mean time we keep walking off the cliff like a herd of lemmings, neglecting abundant natural resources that could alleviate many symptoms. The norm is that people back good ideas and growth is the result. Like a dragster at the starting line, we have red lighted the hole shot and lost the race.

It's time to back up and continue on with a tried and true approach to gain momentum, stability and confidence. Let the people do what we do best, think, dream and take the responsibility ourselves

 

[xcr440]

We're simply spending money in the wrong places.

Spending money over seas to fight a war for oil is very counter productive to spending it here, on US soil keeping people here employed.

I fully support our troops, but it just seems to me that spending that kind of money domestically makes more sense.

 

[Hoosier]

moose, I have finally come to understand just exactly where we see strongly different. I do not believe it is the place of the gov to make the decision of where to invest tax dollars. The United States is full of smart people who are looking to make money. If there is a good idea, you have the entire private sector, which is huge, to make decisions whether to back or not back. I mean look at fanny, fredie and the solar company who was backed with 500 mil, A BIG FAT BANKRUPT. The gov has a rather poor track record and needs to step back and stay within it's boundaries. Do you see how frustrated Americans are with the gov, its for a reason. The private sector has the means and ability to make good or bad decisions which has much less of an negative impact on the masses. We have a snowball effect and momentum is gaining, we need confidence and less intrusion

Very well stated and I agree completely

 

[dcsnomo]

moose, I have finally come to understand just exactly where we see strongly different. I do not believe it is the place of the gov to make the decision of where to invest tax dollars. The United States is full of smart people who are looking to make money. If there is a good idea, you have the entire private sector, which is huge, to make decisions whether to back or not back. I mean look at fanny, fredie and the solar company who was backed with 500 mil, A BIG FAT BANKRUPT. The gov has a rather poor track record and needs to step back and stay within it's boundaries. Do you see how frustrated Americans are with the gov, its for a reason. The private sector has the means and ability to make good or bad decisions which has much less of an negative impact on the masses. We have a snowball effect and momentum is gaining, we need confidence and less intrusion

Lenny-
I agree with this post and the longer one that follows, but I feel a need to make a couple of clarifications/observations:

Fannie and Freddie are not failures over the long term. Fannie was developed in 1938, Freddie in 1970, and hundreds of thousands (millions?) of home mortgages have gone through the agencies, including a few of mine. Whatever the reasons of the mortgage market collapse, I tend to view these agencies as collateral damage from the irresponsibility of the government and the banking system. These agencies made home ownership possible for 4 generations of Americans, and maintained a lively housing industry that employed 11 million construction workers in 2007, plus realtors, building products manufacturers, appliance salesmen, etc. The very near term government screwed up more than Fannie and Freddie, they screwed up the entire housing market.


Second, while everyone likes to utter the fast fact that "the stimulus didn't work", allow me to offer this

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth

The stimulus was passed in Feb 2009. GDP growth rebounded starting July 2009. No, it did not lower unemployment as promised. However, it reversed the declining GDP, which some economists say would have easily driven unemployment to 10 or 11% had it not been passed. The stimulus worked.

Third, "The government shouldn't be investing tax dollars" Whoa! Wait a minute, Tex! The government accounts for 18% of GDP spending. This heroin has been flowing through the veins of our economy for over 100 years. The government durn well better invest our tax dollars because if they stop the economy of this country will wash up on the shores of China and we will all be making cheap blue jeans for WalMart at 35 cents an hour! Definitely, the government should rethink its priorities, and its waste, but we all live off this spending. You cannot extract 18% of GDP dollars from the economic base. You just can't. Watch Europe as their banking crisis is unfolding right now and you will see why. Pay attention to Greece, and see how Germany and France react to it.

Anyway, get back to work on the house, ya can't be fixin' windows if you are banging on a keyboard!

 

[G]

Any new and truly different energy source will not gain traction here in the US. The oil companies are too strong and will resist anything that could cut off their gravy train. I am not being paranoid or fanatical. This is about money. Henry Ford himself was experimenting with different forms of energy shortly after he invented mass production. There is too much money yet to be made to be made in oil. And there is enough oil left for generations. As far as being 'green' it makes no sense to regulate everything to death here in the US when we can do absolutely nothing about what the rest of the world chooses to do. The big and small corps that are leaving the US to set up shop in other countries AND SUCK JOBS AWAY FROM AMERICANS are not doing this because they hate America. They are doing it because there are less regulations and rules and unions and taxes and BS. They are doing it because they can make more money. These people and corps did not make up the rules - the US govt did - but they have learned to play by this set of rules. Make no mistake - Most things happen because of MONEY. You can get as philosophical or rightious or high and mighty as you want but in the end it all comes down to money.

 

[lenny]

Any new and truly different energy source will not gain traction here in the US. The oil companies are too strong and will resist anything that could cut off their gravy train. I am not being paranoid or fanatical. This is about money. Henry Ford himself was experimenting with different forms of energy shortly after he invented mass production. There is too much money yet to be made to be made in oil. And there is enough oil left for generations. As far as being 'green' it makes no sense to regulate everything to death here in the US when we can do absolutely nothing about what the rest of the world chooses to do. The big and small corps that are leaving the US to set up shop in other countries AND SUCK JOBS AWAY FROM AMERICANS are not doing this because they hate America. They are doing it because there are less regulations and rules and unions and taxes and BS. They are doing it because they can make more money. These people and corps did not make up the rules - the US govt did - but they have learned to play by this set of rules. Make no mistake - Most things happen because of MONEY. You can get as philosophical or rightious or high and mighty as you want but in the end it all comes down to money.

I often wonder myself about how money works into the equation. I honestly do not know but would not be surprised if you were on to something.

DCSNOMO, borrowers IMO have contributed greatly to the demise of the mortgage market. After all, who walks into a financial institution and asks to borrow. They are not forced to do so. They make a decision to borrow based upon their own desire or needs. They accept the standard procedures or qualifications as reasonable regardless if it is good or bad for them. They lay their responsibility to know what best for themselves at the door because they want a house.The quantity of foreclosures and pending late notes are a clear indication of how big this has gotten. The American dream is to have a nice car, home, a few kids, eat out and party. We're only months away at any given time to receive your papers of notice. We refinance every time the market drops a point or two until we have no equity and are upside down in the property. We borrow with no down payment because we don't have it and wonder why we are in trouble when a small setback arises. Fannie, Freddie, the gov or us, who walked in wanting money and making the decision what is best for their particular situation. Do we blame them and say "I didn't know that would happen, they gave me the money and I never thought I would be in this mess." You know, I've been there and it only took once before I learned my lesson. My family now has 2 older vehicles, a 2001 mini van with 237,000 miles and my work truck, a 94 dodge with 180,000 miles. No credit cards but I do have a note on my house. Most people in this country do not live within their means and we are where we are as a result of this.

As far as the stimulus, I do not see that as a good comparison mainly because of the gigantic size of the stimulus. You may be right as far as tax money but to the extent and timeliness of this attempt, it is unprecedented. Probably so as a desperate attempt to turn things around and only time will tell the true depth of it's effect. I understand you sometimes need to spend to get situated but the extreme size and uncertainty is a very large risk, as big or bigger then the investment. Now is a poor time to head to the casino for your living.

If there was so much certainty into the proper why to stimulate an economy and the gov being the PLAYER in this attempt, than were all blind and imagining it has worked. Half a billion gone on the solar company that just went bankrupt. I still maintain the private sector is BEST at determining investments and if the gov want to back,,,,well,,,okay. Right now the gov is making the decision and using unprecedented amount of money to do so, and a huge risk it is showing. I hope I am wrong, so much I hope I am wrong and I very well could be but living within a means is a sustainable principle that not only individuals should exercise but also our federal gov.

Back to da old blue house I go!

 

[dcsnomo]

Any new and truly different energy source will not gain traction here in the US. ..There is too much money yet to be made to be made in oil. And there is enough oil left for generations.

Grub-
Yes, there is lots of oil, and yes there is lots of money to be made. But the issue is larger than just "oh, there's some oil, let's buy it." The US spends between $600 and $700 BILLION a year on oil. The US economy is $14.7 trillion, so we spend about 4.5% of total GDP on oil. Here's the rub...60% of that oil is imported. So, we send $300 billion out of our economy just for oil. 16% of that oil, about $50 billion, comes from the politically unstable Persian Gulf. Think about the political implications of that. $50 billion a year so they can fly planes into the World Trade Center. And, another $100 billion a year to pay for the wars to keep the oil flowing.

Yeah, I know domestic drilling helps. But the issue is that long term, the US cannot afford it's dependence on ANY energy sourced from other nations. It is just too big of a burden on our economy. WE need to export energy to THEM.

 

[Hoosier]

Third, "The government shouldn't be investing tax dollars" Whoa! Wait a minute, Tex! The government accounts for 18% of GDP spending. This heroin has been flowing through the veins of our economy for over 100 years. The government durn well better invest our tax dollars because if they stop the economy of this country will wash up on the shores of China and we will all be making cheap blue jeans for WalMart at 35 cents an hour! Definitely, the government should rethink its priorities, and its waste, but we all live off this spending. You cannot extract 18% of GDP dollars from the economic base. You just can't. Watch Europe as their banking crisis is unfolding right now and you will see why. Pay attention to Greece, and see how Germany and France react to it.

Anyway, get back to work on the house, ya can't be fixin' windows if you are banging on a keyboard!

Europe's problems isn't not enough govt. Europe's problem is excessive government spending. The entitlement culture is simply not sustainable, and it's starting to unwind. The USA is just "X" years behind, but we're on the same trend-line.

 

[G]

dcsno listen to yourself. Oil is the biggest show going.No alternative energy can come close. Everybody makes money. The second it comes out of the ground it is a moneymaker. The Arabs estimate just how much they have. (decades) The US petroleum companies calculate how much it will take to ship it and refine it. Depending upon the time of year or weather conditions it will be worth more. If a hurricane is predicted anytime soon the price goes up. If there is a cold snap in the northeast the price goes up. If there is the dreaded switchover from summer gas to winter gas the price goes up. If a camel farts in Pakistan the price goes up. They have us so TRAINED and used to the price going up it is a joke. It is wonderful waterfoutain conversation and a popular political byline but there is very little anyone can do about the price of oil or gas or heating oil. It is a necessary evil. We all believe we are getting hosed but there is nothing anyone can do about it. There is too much money to be made. There will be no alternative energy in the US until all the oil is gone. And that is generations and trillions of dollars away. There is too much money to be made. It could also be argued that the folks that control this process are far more destructive and dangerous than a few camel jockeys that got their hands on some airplanes. Those sandy twits ruined one day in America. Since then 3650 more have been ruined with greed and scare tactics.

 

[frnash]

…Henry Ford himself was experimenting with different forms of energy shortly after he invented mass production. …

"Mass production" — good choice of words, grub!

Automotive trivia time! Surprise, surprise, It was not Henry Ford, but Ransom E. (Eli) Olds that invented the automotive assembly line!

From the Great Idea Finder: Assembly Line:

"In order to keep up with the increasing demand for those newfangled contraptions, horseless carriages, Ransom E. Olds created the assembly line in 1901."

"Olds should have become known as "The father of automotive assembly line," although many people think that it was Henry Ford who invented the assembly line. What Ford did do was to improve upon Olds’s idea by installing conveyor belts. That cut the time of manufacturing a Model T from a day and a half to a mere ninety minutes. Henry Ford should been called "The father of automotive mass production."

 

[dcsnomo]

dcsno listen to yourself. Oil is the biggest show going.No alternative energy can come close. Everybody makes money. The second it comes out of the ground it is a moneymaker. The Arabs estimate just how much they have. (decades) The US petroleum companies calculate how much it will take to ship it and refine it. Depending upon the time of year or weather conditions it will be worth more. If a hurricane is predicted anytime soon the price goes up. If there is a cold snap in the northeast the price goes up. If there is the dreaded switchover from summer gas to winter gas the price goes up. If a camel farts in Pakistan the price goes up. They have us so TRAINED and used to the price going up it is a joke. It is wonderful waterfoutain conversation and a popular political byline but there is very little anyone can do about the price of oil or gas or heating oil. It is a necessary evil. We all believe we are getting hosed but there is nothing anyone can do about it. There is too much money to be made. There will be no alternative energy in the US until all the oil is gone. And that is generations and trillions of dollars away. There is too much money to be made. It could also be argued that the folks that control this process are far more destructive and dangerous than a few camel jockeys that got their hands on some airplanes. Those sandy twits ruined one day in America. Since then 3650 more have been ruined with greed and scare tactics.

Grub-
I see your position, unfortunately I refuse to throw in the towel. This is America. We lead. We innovate.

As for the "sandy twits ruined one day in America", alas, I believe the implications have been much greater-

A new report out of Brown University estimates that the U.S. wars in Afghanistan and Iraq--together with the counterinsurgency efforts in Pakistan--will, all told, cost $4 trillion and leave 225,000 dead, both civilians and soldiers.

The group of economists, anthropologists, lawyers, humanitarian personnel, and political scientists involved in the project estimated that the cost of caring for the veterans injured in the wars will reach $1 trillion in 30 or 40 years. In estimating the $4 trillion total, they did not take into account the $5.3 billion in reconstruction spending the government has promised Afghanistan, state and local contributions to veteran care, interest payments on war debt, or the costs of Medicare for veterans when they reach 65.

The Congressional Budget Office, meanwhile, has assessed the federal price tag for the wars at $1.8 trillion through 2021. The report says that is a gross underestimate, predicting that the government has already paid $2.3 trillion to $2.7 trillion.

More than 6,000 U.S. troops and 2,300 contractors have died since the wars began after Sept. 11. A staggering 550,000 disability claims have been filed with the VA as of 2010. Meanwhile, 137,000 civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq have died in the conflict. (Injuries among U.S. contractors have also not yet been made public, further complicating the calculations of cost.) Nearly 8 million people have been displaced.

Why? Oil.

 

[polarisrider1]

"Mass production" — good choice of words, grub!

Automotive trivia time! Surprise, surprise, It was not Henry Ford, but Ransom E. (Eli) Olds that invented the automotive assembly line!

From the Great Idea Finder: Assembly Line:

It was on the History channel a few nights back too.

 

[xcr440]

Grub-
I see your position, unfortunately I refuse to throw in the towel. This is America. We lead. We innovate.

As for the "sandy twits ruined one day in America", alas, I believe the implications have been much greater-

A new report out of Brown University estimates that the U.S. wars in Afghanistan and Iraq--together with the counterinsurgency efforts in Pakistan--will, all told, cost $4 trillion and leave 225,000 dead, both civilians and soldiers.

The group of economists, anthropologists, lawyers, humanitarian personnel, and political scientists involved in the project estimated that the cost of caring for the veterans injured in the wars will reach $1 trillion in 30 or 40 years. In estimating the $4 trillion total, they did not take into account the $5.3 billion in reconstruction spending the government has promised Afghanistan, state and local contributions to veteran care, interest payments on war debt, or the costs of Medicare for veterans when they reach 65.

The Congressional Budget Office, meanwhile, has assessed the federal price tag for the wars at $1.8 trillion through 2021. The report says that is a gross underestimate, predicting that the government has already paid $2.3 trillion to $2.7 trillion.

More than 6,000 U.S. troops and 2,300 contractors have died since the wars began after Sept. 11. A staggering 550,000 disability claims have been filed with the VA as of 2010. Meanwhile, 137,000 civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq have died in the conflict. (Injuries among U.S. contractors have also not yet been made public, further complicating the calculations of cost.) Nearly 8 million people have been displaced.

Why? Oil.

Agree 100%.

I just think the longer we delay getting going here in the US on producing our own oil, the longer this struggle will go on and the more it will cost.