proposed road from Kennecott mine to Humboldt.

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snobuilder

Well-known member
I'm against mining but love the products i use everyday that make my life as easy as pie.

so the sulfide is only released when?
seems to me this is a natural occuring mineral and is under the waterways as well....it is in the ground already, but i'm sure some fair minded "environmentalists" will enlighten us with the all the scary dangers, so i don't have to worry.
 
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anonomoose

New member
snobuilder said:
I'm against mining but love the products i use everyday that make my life as easy as pie.

so the sulfide is only released when?
seems to me this is a natural occuring mineral and is under the waterways as well....it is in the ground already, but i'm sure some fair minded "environmentalists" will enlighten us with the all the scary dangers, so i don't have to worry.
Click to expand...

Though I am NOT an environmentalist...I can answer your question on this one.

The ore is currently and mostly unexposed to air/moisture in it's native state; it is buried in rock formations where it has been for a few million years. Once the rock is exposed by mining it, moisture and air will contact the rock and cause it to sulfate, which creates sulfuric acid. This then leaches out by natural actions (water seeks a route through cracks now made in the rocks, eh?) and then finds it's way to ground water which gets into the streams acidifying it far worse (ten thousand times) than acid rain, and of course runs down hill toward the biggest cleanest lake in the world.

It is very conceivable that someday the world will need this clean water just to drink. We may bottle/pipe it out west, or tanker it to other parts of the world that does NOT have fresh water that is potable. Water is also a mineral and a resource and imagine how rich the great lakes region would become if we sold it like crude oil is sold today?

Of course I wouldn't worry about it for yourself....you will be dead and gone and who gives a rip if your grand kids are stuck with the bill to clean it up or try and contain it, or that the water in the lake isn't very salvageable for drinking?

Much like the lumber baron's who took the pines never mind the consequences if it means a few thousand jobs and short term profits and taxes....the environment is expendable and why worry about that? Funny thing about trees though...they grow back over a dozen centuries. What about rock that is exposed to air and water, and where the mining site is minutes from the big lake and the company that created the mine is no longer around...a corporation which comes and goes by filing a few papers at the state and county level?

Not too long ago, the Keweenaw had a proposed pulp factory all set to go that would have used local wood cutting to produce pulp and would have required use and discharge of water into the big lake too. But enough people said nuts to that factory even though it was going to provide jobs and tax revenue far greater than this Kennecott mine and killed it.


Different times and different economic conditions produce different outcomes.

I hope I am dead wrong, and that this company will act responsibly and find the technology to close this thing up so that the waters leading from the site and surroundings won't be an environmental disaster after all, and that the company will be good stewards of this pristine area and will someday be put it back to it's natural state- unmolested.

I doubt I will live to see it, but hope springs eternally.
 
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snobuilder

Well-known member
mining companies face miles of red tape and it takes YEARS of evirolobby inspired scrutiny to get a new mining permit, yet this is not enough for the self righteous envirowackjobs.
 
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rakins800

Member
Well, snobuilder, tell us why your great state of WI. wont allow any sulfide mines. Cant wait to hear your response..........
 
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snobuilder

Well-known member
well, rakins800...LOL...what was shot down in wisco was a propoasal to streamline the permitting process and cut the amount of red tape it takes to open a clean mining operation so it can be accomplished in somewhere less than 3 years.
The same permitting process that was envirolobbied into effect so as to frustrate and confound any efforts to open mines and create the much needed jobs in the northern regions of WI.
politics played a big role as well, as NONE of the dems in WI were about to give ANY support to a bill that Gov. Walker was in favor of. Sadly the deciding vote to kill the bill was from a rhino repub who was a turncoat on his own party and i believe has since been voted out of office. Nearly every town in the UP was based around some sort of mine operation from years past. if that type of unregulated operation didn't destroy the sacred environment I doubt one that has to follow the stringent guidelines that are in place with todays modern day mines will have any more impact on mother earth than that of lets say..... the production of so called "green" battery storage electric cars.
 
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rakins800

Member
HUGE difference between open iron ore mine and a sulfide mine. One leaves a huge eyesore behind, the other leaves contaminated water,soil,and air. Just my 2 cents. :)
 
xsledder

xsledder

Active member
We Have the Clean Water Act (CWA), NPDES permitting (Part of the CWA), OSHA, ADA, and other environmental, labor, and accessability laws in response to past disasters to allow us to mine, build, manufacture in a safe, environmentally friendly, and accessable way. If we still can't mine, build, or manufacture with this laws in place because of the evil corporations, what good are the laws?
 
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mride460

New member
Mining has MSHA and they do a good job of keep the mining companies in check as far as employee safety is concerned.
 
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mikes99ss

Well-known member
From my standing ovation department. A snippit from Todays marquette mining journal.

Marquette County Commissioner Steve Pence said it was "understandable that local officials were upset because the safest and most economical route to transfer minerals from the Yellow Dog Plains to the Humboldt Mill will not be constructed due to unresolved environmental issues."

"But it is wrong to blame the EPA for rejecting a hastily concocted plan that reflected a multinational corporation's sense of entitlement, which trumped concerns as important as those embodied in the Clean Water Act," Pence said. " In an area where any job is a highly sought prize, it is easy to politicize and condemn those who dare say there are important and competing concerns which mitigate against a 'quick fix' which is no fix at all."

Pence said it is "regrettable when government officials presume the worst about those who are sworn to uphold regulations and laws which reflect the national will. It ends with the public distrusting all who (serve) in government."

Pence said the road commission pursued County Road 595 "hastily" and "with inadequate foresight," "without due regard to many critical issues, including how the road would be maintained in the event no one agreed to long-term maintenance and snow removal."

"As local officials who do not want our every action judged as political, unwise or incompetent, we should avoid castigation of the EPA as both shortsighted and wrong," Pence said. "Absent clear and convincing proof that the EPA had an agenda that was anti-jobs - rather than being legitimately concerned with our most precious resource, water - we should be restrained in our criticism and consider our own eagerness to please anyone who promises jobs, of marginal pay and limited duration."
 
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ripcord

New member
And here's more of the snippet;

"This has been a David and Goliath struggle. Activists throughout the Midwest are watching this issue," Comfort said. "Would the EPA and the DEQ accommodate one of the world's largest mining companies and allow them to build a haul road through fragile wetlands? This is a victory for working people and all citizens across the U.P. Big business lost this round."

Kathleen Heideman, a Save the Wild U.P. board member, agreed.

"This boondoggle was a corporate driveway dressed up as a public service. Rio Tinto has a lot of nerve to set up the county road commission to build their private infrastructure," Heideman said. "Taxpayer money should never have been spent lobbying for Rio Tinto's haul road, period."
 
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anonomoose

New member
The problem here is that this mining company picked out one of the most pristine and wild areas left in Michigan save for perhaps the Seney Wildlife Refuge and slammed thru mining permits that were held up because Michigan did not have an acid mining law on the books, so Michigan looked at the law in Wisconsin and with the help of Kennecott itself, drew up one and passed it. Of course this mining spot was not favored by a bunch of people but Michigan starved for tax revenue, passed and approved the permits. Lots of effort by opposition to the mine took it's time going thru the courts but for the most part didn't have enough power to trump a huge corporation with millions to spend on the effort. So the mining will happen.

As for the road, there was a strategic decision made by Kennecott not to press for a mining road to Humbolt and avoid using existing roads. Kennecott knew very well what the time line was for constructing a road of this nature thru such wild lands and they also knew that building the road would cross many rivers and streams which would not only affect this area during construction but long afterwords. Kennecott also did not commit completely to maintaining the road beyond their own use, or to turn the road right of way back to it's natural state. Because they chose to fight one battle at a time, it is quite clear that they deliberately chose not to put the necessary ground work into obtaining the permitting to establish the road.

Most of the time the "hammer" used by Kennecott was to offer up jobs and taxes for the mine. The road which they purposely chose to extract and remove the mining operation was down county road 550 right thru Marquette. Clearly Kennecott knew this would not be a very acceptable route but chose it to gain support to build the alternate road thru the wilds only after the mining permitting approval, leaving very little time to gain the necessary EPA approvals.

There is another solution that few are addressing. They can truck down the AAA road to county road 510 then south all the way to M-41 which is already established, and would not require use of the 550 road and would avoid down town Marquette and all the local traffic that would have been met going down the 550. Why didn't they propose improving that road and staying off of the 550?

I have no doubt that the new road will be built...but Kennecott will have to commit to more of the development and maintenance and restoration back or a turn over to the county if the county wants it and is willing to maintain it when the turn over happens.
Why does nobody ask why this road is necessary at all? Why doesn't anyone ask why Kennecott doesn't just buy the land between the mine and Humbolt and go thru the permitting without involving the county to make it a county road?

If anyone knows the answers to these questions I would be all ears for the information.

BTW Kennecott's Flambeau mine in Wisconsin has a segment that has continued to fail the water quality laws, and continues to pollute the water to this day. The EPA has not sued but some of the environmental watch dog groups have sued and a judgement against Kennecott is still pending appeals by Kennecott.

Wisconsin laws differed from Michigan laws in that in order for permits to be issued in Wisconsin the mining company has to provide evidence of a single mining operation of this type (sulfide) which has not violated the clean water act now on the books. Kennecott could not do that with any of their operations world wide and is why the only way that mining will get approved in Wisconsin is if the current administration waters down the law..which the mining lobbyists are trying to accomplish right now, or if a company like Kennecott can actually produce a mine and button it up again without violating the clean water act laws.. If they are able to do that, then Kennecott will have set the bar for others to follow and will be a model for the country.

Acid mine drainage is a problem at nearly every single mining operation in existence including all of Canada. Currently the best efforts to reduce the drainage is to neutralize the acid drainage by using strong alkaline materials in the backfill such as lime concentrates which offset the acidic drainage. As you can imagine this will neutralize the acid but creates other problems by itself.

If I have any of this wrong...feel free to correct me.
 
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snobuilder

Well-known member
gotta love how the voices of concern radiate out of the mouths of them who live in and profit (paycheckwise) from some of the most industrialized arenas of the great lakes region.somehow while living and prospering from the geographical regions in which they pillowdruel from they feel compelled to comment on and support the suffocation of the modest indutrialization of the regions in which the raw materials are drawn from to make there cushy lives a effin reality.

may you ruin your pants on the errant expulsions radiated from your prius batteries, fools.
 
xsledder

xsledder

Active member
How many on this site have actually applied for and obtained a 401 or 404 permit? When I read the article, I didn't get out that the company was trying to pull a fast one and they got caught. I read as if their engineer didn't completely address all the requirements of the permit with their submittal. This happens on almost every roadway project out there. That is way there is no such thing as a shovel ready job. The permit for this job will take them 2 to 5 years to obtain by the time all the issues, and issues caused by addressing issues are resolved. It took me 10 month to obtain a 404 permit for a small twin box culvert project. That's because you have this agency to clear the project and another agency to clear the project and yet this agency won't clear the project until another agency clears a particular aspect of the project. There are always unrelatistic deadlines by applicants and regulators that are next to impossible for engineers, planners, and environmental scientists to meet. Gave a deadline of January 4th last month; my God, we would like to sleep too!
 
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snobuilder

Well-known member
xsledder said:
How many on this site have actually applied for and obtained a 401 or 404 permit? When I read the article, I didn't get out that the company was trying to pull a fast one and they got caught. I read as if their engineer didn't completely address all the requirements of the permit with their submittal. This happens on almost every roadway project out there. That is way there is no such thing as a shovel ready job. The permit for this job will take them 2 to 5 years to obtain by the time all the issues, and issues caused by addressing issues are resolved. It took me 10 month to obtain a 404 permit for a small twin box culvert project. That's because you have this agency to clear the project and another agency to clear the project and yet this agency won't clear the project until another agency clears a particular aspect of the project. There are always unrelatistic deadlines by applicants and regulators that are next to impossible for engineers, planners, and environmental scientists to meet. Gave a deadline of January 4th last month; my God, we would like to sleep too!
Click to expand...

envirolobbyists serve only to restrict, confound and stifle.
 
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rakins800

Member
If it eases your mind snobuilder, I wouldnt want sulfuric acid water,soil,or air anywhere......not just not in your back yard. When 50 square miles is gated off and nothing can survive there, I hope they enjoy the money spent years before. Because there wont be any fishing or hunting or tourism.......unless you like seeing the pretty red rocks.......
 
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snobuilder

Well-known member
rakins800 said:
If it eases your mind snobuilder, I wouldnt want sulfuric acid water,soil,or air anywhere......not just not in your back yard. When 50 square miles is gated off and nothing can survive there, I hope they enjoy the money spent years before. Because there wont be any fishing or hunting or tourism.......unless you like seeing the pretty red rocks.......
Click to expand...

I can feel your compasion, but where exactly is the sky falling?...surely the media will have pictures of the devastation...guess I'll just wait for the 20/20, 60 minutes, nbc, abc,cnn,cBS, msnbc report.

meanwhile....what kind a sled do you ride?
 
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