Proposed Vehicle Miles Traveled Tax
- Thread starter heckler56
- Start date
favoritos
Well-known member
Equitable makes sense.
It certainly isn't easy to come up with a system that seems perfect.
I worked with a couple of high mile commuters.(Frank and Ernie) Both of them drove over 90 miles one way. Their reasons were similar to what Skylar stated about community and their towns. We had a lot of conversations about their drive and it often turned into talk about the associated costs. It was often interesting because they had such a huge contrast in vehicles. Frank drove a mid 80s Suburban and Ernie drove a Geo.
Ernie often joked with Frank about how much gas was going into the Suburban.
"Your gas is paying for my road", "Frank, they finally finished that new section of highway, Thank You."
We all shared a laugh about the topic because it sorta seemed fair. Frank's vehicle was big, (probably harder on the roads) and it used a lot of gas. Ernie's car was so tiny, it could almost run on a fluff of air. The variance in their user taxes made sense.
I don't have a problem with a system that seems equitable.
Latner, thanks for the info. I hope that is correct with the information about shelving the proposal. It didn't make sense in the big picture. Frank and Ernie would have paid the same. We wouldn't joke about that style of equity.
It certainly isn't easy to come up with a system that seems perfect.
I worked with a couple of high mile commuters.(Frank and Ernie) Both of them drove over 90 miles one way. Their reasons were similar to what Skylar stated about community and their towns. We had a lot of conversations about their drive and it often turned into talk about the associated costs. It was often interesting because they had such a huge contrast in vehicles. Frank drove a mid 80s Suburban and Ernie drove a Geo.
Ernie often joked with Frank about how much gas was going into the Suburban.
"Your gas is paying for my road", "Frank, they finally finished that new section of highway, Thank You."
We all shared a laugh about the topic because it sorta seemed fair. Frank's vehicle was big, (probably harder on the roads) and it used a lot of gas. Ernie's car was so tiny, it could almost run on a fluff of air. The variance in their user taxes made sense.
I don't have a problem with a system that seems equitable.
Latner, thanks for the info. I hope that is correct with the information about shelving the proposal. It didn't make sense in the big picture. Frank and Ernie would have paid the same. We wouldn't joke about that style of equity.
goofy600
Well-known member
Think this may happen, don’t tax the EV so more and more switch over which for the environment is a good thing (you can insert political party if wanted) and continue to bump gas tax to stick it to the unenviromental people (again insert p p if wanted) until everyone is in an EV then they will have no choice but to come up with a new plan. Just something to think about, and unfortunately anything our government does anymore has a side instead of actually for the people.
L
lenny
Guest
It’s nothing more than a carbon tax. Each of us has a footprint on this planet and they want to tax you for being alive.
goofy600
Well-known member
Lenny you are correct if you are alive you are taxed ( for the most part) some more than others. The more you play the more you pay. Other problem is all the loop holes in the system, if you make enough or have the right profession you can make more then others and pay a lot less. But to the mileage point they will have to make changes in the future it is inevitable. Don’t know what but it is.
heckler56
Active member
Still trying to come up with real world solutions. I still think the Federal tax credit for EVs needs to be eliminated.
Next, we can all agree petrol is being taxed and I appreciate the comparison above of a suburban and geo and their impact at the pump and on the roads. So maybe a increase in petrol tax is in order as it hasn’t been increased since the 90’s. Those of us towing to remote areas won’t be constrained by the downfall of EVs: charging, miles per charge, cold weather impact on battery performance, power outages, etc.
Now EVs: I am thinking something similar to the petrol tax. As you drive around the country you will need to stop at a charging station, so a tax could be applied by kWh. As I mentioned before on my purchase of an EV, my electric company gave a payment to get a charger. This charger is now forever linked to my electric account. So I would think a tax per kWh could also be charged on my electric bill. Now one potential way I could get around it would be to use a standard house outlet but I can honestly say it was brutally slow when I first got the car. Like painfully slow and almost impracticality slow.
Next, we can all agree petrol is being taxed and I appreciate the comparison above of a suburban and geo and their impact at the pump and on the roads. So maybe a increase in petrol tax is in order as it hasn’t been increased since the 90’s. Those of us towing to remote areas won’t be constrained by the downfall of EVs: charging, miles per charge, cold weather impact on battery performance, power outages, etc.
Now EVs: I am thinking something similar to the petrol tax. As you drive around the country you will need to stop at a charging station, so a tax could be applied by kWh. As I mentioned before on my purchase of an EV, my electric company gave a payment to get a charger. This charger is now forever linked to my electric account. So I would think a tax per kWh could also be charged on my electric bill. Now one potential way I could get around it would be to use a standard house outlet but I can honestly say it was brutally slow when I first got the car. Like painfully slow and almost impracticality slow.
goofy600
Well-known member
So in places like southeast Wisconsin and northern Illinois they have emission testing to renew license plates could it come to a point where they plug in your car to get accurate mileage then pay when renew plates? Imagine that mess to get that done! Just doing a quick search fed gas tax 18.4 cents, Michigan gas tax 18.7 cents per gallon but then the kicker is then there is the 6% sales tax that is charged. So you actually get taxed twice by the state, and I’m sure that is in all states just at different levels. So that is what they have to figure out for the EV people.
favoritos
Well-known member
Some sort of pay to play system would make sense.
How to do it, is a tough question to answer. It is an ongoing debate around the world and EVs add a lot to the discussion. There are plenty of variables as mentioned just with charging methods. As we start to see more in that market, I would anticipate off peak charging also becoming a factor. It could help with grid management.
We travel in Europe fairly often. It is surprising how many different fee systems they have between the EU countries. Part of the rental discussion involves which countries we will be driving. The rental vehicle is "loaded" for the systems we will encounter. Some countries use a flat fee permit system per passenger vehicle and some use travel toll system. There are also toll systems that rely on big infrastructure investments. Those are generally aimed at large vehicles and use drive by readers to measure travel. Those systems are impressive and incorporate traffic management with lane speeds for upcoming events(accidents, construction, etc.) They are not really practical for our situation in the U.S.
Our situation in the U.S. isn't a simple one and done idea. We essentially have two types of driving and a lot of miles of highway. What works for city driving is not a good solution for rural highways. The contrast also creates difficulty in adapting a single type of vehicle. EV doesn't make any sense out in the middle of nowhere.
I get the idea behind a VMT tax. Our current system essentially does that with the fuel tax. The EV segment is not paying their share to use the road. That disparity will continue to grow. I already deal with large truck fleets that are switching their local/mid delivery vehicles to battery based hybrids. The big players are ready to throw big money into EV fleets. We need a pay to play system for those rigs. There is also some irony to EV. They are heavier and put more weight travel on road surfaces.
The number crunchers running these big fleets don't want to see a user fee attached to their EVs. There is also a segment of users that don't want to see it happen. But, everyone should pay to play.
I'm just not a fan of VMT being used as an external monitoring system.
How to do it, is a tough question to answer. It is an ongoing debate around the world and EVs add a lot to the discussion. There are plenty of variables as mentioned just with charging methods. As we start to see more in that market, I would anticipate off peak charging also becoming a factor. It could help with grid management.
We travel in Europe fairly often. It is surprising how many different fee systems they have between the EU countries. Part of the rental discussion involves which countries we will be driving. The rental vehicle is "loaded" for the systems we will encounter. Some countries use a flat fee permit system per passenger vehicle and some use travel toll system. There are also toll systems that rely on big infrastructure investments. Those are generally aimed at large vehicles and use drive by readers to measure travel. Those systems are impressive and incorporate traffic management with lane speeds for upcoming events(accidents, construction, etc.) They are not really practical for our situation in the U.S.
Our situation in the U.S. isn't a simple one and done idea. We essentially have two types of driving and a lot of miles of highway. What works for city driving is not a good solution for rural highways. The contrast also creates difficulty in adapting a single type of vehicle. EV doesn't make any sense out in the middle of nowhere.
I get the idea behind a VMT tax. Our current system essentially does that with the fuel tax. The EV segment is not paying their share to use the road. That disparity will continue to grow. I already deal with large truck fleets that are switching their local/mid delivery vehicles to battery based hybrids. The big players are ready to throw big money into EV fleets. We need a pay to play system for those rigs. There is also some irony to EV. They are heavier and put more weight travel on road surfaces.
The number crunchers running these big fleets don't want to see a user fee attached to their EVs. There is also a segment of users that don't want to see it happen. But, everyone should pay to play.
I'm just not a fan of VMT being used as an external monitoring system.
heckler56
Active member
You bring up some great points. My “charging station” is programmed to charge only on off peak hours. My electric rates will now be tied to a cost structure between peak and off peak. This will even impact my AC cost in the summer. My electric utility only allows for the reimbursement with the purchase of one of two chargers out there. Principally as they are smart chargers and connected via the internet they can “see” all my activity through. So it seems logical a tax could be associated with the charging related to the EV.
The whole push towards EVs is a head scratcher when you think of how much we have focused on efficient heating and ac, led lights, appliances, et al, and now we look to force people into using electric for vehicle. Just seems counter intuitive. As more demand is place on the grid so will come the blackouts. Now for me I have a backup generator that should handle my ac and charging an EV. My guess is most will not consider the risk of power outages and how are you going to charge this thing. The recent Texas storm would be an example. How many people consider having to have a robust back up system?
Your point is correct that EVs are heavier than a comparable petrol vehicle. One auto manufacture made the comment recently that they expect battery capacity to go down in the near future to lessen the weight but the range will also get shorter. He feels we will get used to the EV charging and not be so prone to panic about mileage. Not in my world. If I want to go back to see family in Chicago I would need to stop 3 times and charge for an hour each. This is a drive I have in the past made the round trip in a single day. I can’t imagine accommodating people charging for an hour or so unless we create amusement parks along the road to entertain you for an hour.
heckler56: Does your electric company use a separate meter/charge a different rate (lower?) for the KwHr used by the car charger?
heckler56
Active member
My rate is based on time of day with a higher rate during 2pm-7pm everyday of the year and not by use. I could obtain another rate lowering if I choose to have a meter installed on my AC which would have a larger penalty for AC use during those hours and slightly lower off hour. The charger is in theory part of the electrical grid and visible at all times to the utility. The manufacturer masks it’s visibility outside of myself and the electric company.