Trail conditions start with the base - DIRT

snocrazy

Active member
I see the trail clean ups are in motion. I was wondering if any of the clubs grade/ groom the dirt before the snow flies. In my area the trail are really tore up and 2 tracked from all the side by sides and 4 wheelers. Significantly out of level. I would think that grading these trails before winter would really make a big difference. Is there ever snowmobile funding spent on such activities? I feel like the 45$ stickers could support this. Maybe even atv sticker funding. It would make for a better (maybe earlier) start to the trail riding season. I would also think this would save wear and tear on the groomers. Having to fill all the holes early season has to be a real pain.

Hope all are having a nice summer.
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
The DNR does not reimburse for that type of off-season work. Any snowmobile club doing it would have to foot the bill themselves. The Keweenaw ATV club does get funding for trail maintenance and does use some of that funding for grading work. I know one area being done this summer is between Mohawk and Phoenix. There were some pretty big whoops in the ground there, so glad it is getting done.

-John
 

packerlandrider

Active member
After how many whooped snowmobile trails I have already been on so far this summer for work I have wondered this as well (eastern U.P.). Not sure if there is any direct funding for ATVs/side by sides to use these trails (as they certainly do), but I would almost think that would be the area to attack this from if indeed the case.

Because it certainly is true - trail conditions start with what is under the snow. I know of at least a couple joint snowmobile/ATV clubs in northern Wisconsin that groom their trails year round. Come winter, I have ridden these trails with only 6 inches of snow on the ground and have found good+ riding due to the smoothness of the trail prior to snowfall. Some of the trails I have been on this summer I question how nice they would be even after 2 feet of snow.
 
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ezra

Well-known member
I know in my parts after the crops are out and turned the local clubs share a fine disk to go over the clumped up fields .and by clubs I am more times than not talking about a farmer in a club who has a few hrs to take one of his tractors with his gas to go out and do the job.
U deff know it when a section did not get done. on most yrs we don't get enough snow to cover some of the huge clumps in clay corn fields
 
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snocrazy

Active member
Would it not be a logical thing to do? Any recommendations on who to reach out to in the DNR or other agencies that fund the trails?
Has this ever been discussed in any meetings or any thing? How can I push this? I am willing to spend my personal time on it.

There is not a club in the area any more (munising). I know that would be a starting point if there was one. Discussing it in those meetings.
Are there DNR or MSA meetings that some thing like this can be brought up?

If you can justify the cost savings on the grooming side, I would think it would be easy to sell the idea.
Not to mention the better experience for the dirt riders.
I know it can be difficult to get big organizations to listen to one guy with an idea.
What about some sort of petition. If x # of signers would they have to consider?

Just dumping some thoughts on this while I sit in the most boring 2 hr meeting ever.
 

dofo1

Member
I think a lot of the trail damage (at least in Northern WI) is done by hunters using them for access during a wet hunting season. I am not against hunting or hunters, its just my observations over the years.
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
It would be nice to be able to have the DNR fund more off-season trail work, but there are a host of issues. The two most important being:

1) Easement to the land in the non-snowmobile months. Some areas the snowmobile trails use in MI do not have year round easement. Only easements from Dec 1-March 31.

2) $. There is just not enough money for them to be able to reimburse clubs for summer grading. Sometimes I think it would be a good idea for the DNR to use the dozers they have lying in wait for use in a forest fire to grade the trails, but then there is always the issue of the wear and tear and the possibility that one breaks down while grading a snowmobile trail and cannot be put to use building a fire break.

If you ask me, the state of MI needs to do a comprehensive study of which trails get used the most and then used that data to spend as close to an equivalent amount of money per trail mile based on the usage. As it stands now, a mile of trail that may only see a few dozen sleds down it a month gets the same amount of money allocated to it as a trail that might see 100's in a day! Lots of political red-tape (not just from state officials) to cut through to get that done, so I am not going to hold my breath!!! :)

-John
 
L

lenny

Guest
Many trails go through private property, fields,,,,etc that hay is harvested or other crops,,,, or just simply private property. In the summer time the land may be used for other things and billy bob farmer ain't gonna want some heavy machinery creating permanent trails through his property. As john said, some can be graded and are graded. Last season, sections of the Bill Nichols grade was graded and it was a huge improvement for ATV. I honestly do not think we will see much more of that grading in our area with all the private property trails go through. It's a good idea but just not advantageous for land owners.
 

snocrazy

Active member
I understand in areas where the trails are on private land. Around here it is all national forest. (most of it any way)

We have a hard time keeping the trails groomed in the winter. Just seems like this would make it better for all.
It sucks there is so much red tape. I bet if I rented a dozer or grader and went to town they would arrest me.
Messed up world we live in.

"comprehensive study of which trails get used the most" Bet this would create jobs. They could sit on the side of the trail with a clicker/counter. LOL
It would be interesting to see how they would go about gathering those metrics. proximity sensors or laser across trail. The old rubber hose method like they use on roads obviously wont cut it.
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
It would be interesting to see how they would go about gathering those metrics. proximity sensors or laser across trail. The old rubber hose method like they use on roads obviously wont cut it.

They are already doing it in lots of areas. Two sensors in the Keweenaw and others in the W. UP. I would venture to guess they are doing it in your neck of the woods as well as in lower MI.

-John
 

packerlandrider

Active member
It sucks there is so much red tape. I bet if I rented a dozer or grader and went to town they would arrest me.
Messed up world we live in.
I would be really interested to see what would happen if you did go to town on trails on state land; I'm trying to think of an explicit reason why you would get stopped (other than maybe liability issues???).

As far as I have observed, from a forestry standpoint, when a road gets so rutted up that it becomes a problem, it either comes down to the DNR having to use their funds to fix it, or pestering the loggers to grade it after they are done with harvesting. It's not like the DNR likes having their roads rutted up, it just comes down to, as John has been pointing out, funding to maintain them.

As a side note, something I learned earlier this summer and found interesting, is that on a lot of the old RR grades out here after there was no more usage by trains, the tracks were pulled, but the ties were left and are now covered by sand, creating natural stutters as the ties slowly deteriorate.
 
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Hoosier

Well-known member
Seems like turning more and more of the snowmobile trails to multi-use trails isn't the best idea for snowmobiles - if the dirt season users tear it up and make it harder to groom when there is snow. Seems like there should be some requirement for them to maintain it a little during their season - the tread lightly concept.
 

snocrazy

Active member
Bringing back this old thread. How you like me now? ;)
The last 2 summers I have been grading the dirt before snow season.
It has made a world of difference. I am a firm believer in multi use trials and drawing funding from both snow and orv funds.
Our club has now purchased a tractor and the domore box grader. It has worked magic.
Now we are planing grading 3 times a summer to ensure the orv traffic has smooth trails.
The next piece of equipment we need is a roller compacter of some sort for the dirt.

The other piece of the puzzle is the Dubie Groomers we have. People have said (to big - to heavy) hogwash.
You do need more power in the tractor to pull them (never use a trail bully for a dubie drag - if bully go with 400)
They pack the trails and cut like no other. I would never waste my time with a light weight small drag.

People are now saying we have some of the best trails in the UP. This is because of volunteers getting involved and doing the right thing for our trails. No hidden agendas here. The people involved are not trying to profit from grooming operations. We care because we ride these trails. We live here. Our community benefits in so many ways.

Hope all who have come to the area have enjoyed the changes.
 

old abe

Well-known member
Bringing back this old thread. How you like me now? ;)
The last 2 summers I have been grading the dirt before snow season.
It has made a world of difference. I am a firm believer in multi use trials and drawing funding from both snow and orv funds.
Our club has now purchased a tractor and the domore box grader. It has worked magic.
Now we are planing grading 3 times a summer to ensure the orv traffic has smooth trails.
The next piece of equipment we need is a roller compacter of some sort for the dirt.

The other piece of the puzzle is the Dubie Groomers we have. People have said (to big - to heavy) hogwash.
You do need more power in the tractor to pull them (never use a trail bully for a dubie drag - if bully go with 400)
They pack the trails and cut like no other. I would never waste my time with a light weight small drag.

People are now saying we have some of the best trails in the UP. This is because of volunteers getting involved and doing the right thing for our trails. No hidden agendas here. The people involved are not trying to profit from grooming operations. We care because we ride these trails. We live here. Our community benefits in so many ways.

Hope all who have come to the area have enjoyed the changes.

snocrazy is proof it can be done. From some of the worst trail conditions ever encountered, to the very best! Way to go SORVA! You had the effort, and the want! That's what it takes to get it done.
 
I have never seen the grader(s) you use but i do know they make a box type scraper with a roller mounted on the back of it on a big dirt job wonder how it would work on a smaller version. This was pulled with 4wheel drive/quad track...roller grader was the brand i believe
 
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markshop

Member
I understand in areas where the trails are on private land. Around here it is all national forest. (most of it any way)

We have a hard time keeping the trails groomed in the winter. Just seems like this would make it better for all.
It sucks there is so much red tape. I bet if I rented a dozer or grader and went to town they would arrest me.
Messed up world we live in.

"comprehensive study of which trails get used the most" Bet this would create jobs. They could sit on the side of the trail with a clicker/counter. LOL
It would be interesting to see how they would go about gathering those metrics. proximity sensors or laser across trail. The old rubber hose method like they use on roads obviously wont cut it.
mercer sno goers have six sled counters on there trails as of this year.
 

snocrazy

Active member
We now have trail counters out on the trails too. We will have a nice report at the end of the season to share.
This thread was brought back from the past before we had a club in Alger County. So much has changed since those days.
 

sjb

Member
what's the overall goal of the trail counters? Obtain more funding? Follow trends? Groom depending on the traffic?
 
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