Trail permit sales down 35%

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lx700kev

New member
I made it up north 3 times last year but not into the UP. I was not going to pay the $90 (for two sleds). I stay in northern Wi because the driving distance into MI is further than I like to go (even tho it's not much further). I prefer to "ride" up to the UP while I'm riding in northern WI. But the dollars are not worth the loop I may make into the UP while I'm there.
I too would be a supporter of a 2 to 5 day pass but, I agree that it would be hard to police that. Just by the few posts we have here there is at least a "trend" leaning towards the fact that the permit increase has had an effect (affect?) on a percentage of riders.
 
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Hoosier

Well-known member
xcr440 said:
You guys suggesting a 3 day permit, how would they, or better yet, how COULD they enforce that? Different colors every weekend? How many colors would they need? Are they going to stop everyone to check dates on a pass if they don't use different colors every weekend? How many additional DNR boys would they need, and in how many different places?

I just don't believe it is a viable option. Sounds like a real PITA if you ask me.
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I don't know...they do it with fishing and hunting licenses. Ontario offers it for snowmobiles. Maybe it's a larger permit that is located on the windshield where the dates can be seen more clearly - you just need to see a 3 digit expiration date anyway - like 114 for Jan 14. It can be a larger sticker because it's only going to be there for a few days. Whenever I've seen the DNR checking stickers, they slow you down fairly well anyway so they can see the permit. I'm not saying it's an ideal situation, but there has to be some way to charge different people different amounts that reflects how much they are using the trails. Say a 3 day permit is $20 and a season permit can stay at $45. I can't see too many people honestly complaining about $20 for 3 days (although some will obviously). Another argument could be to have a cheaper season-long permit for the lower peninsula.
 
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xcr440

Well-known member
polarisrider1 said:
Ontario puts dates on their permits, they are punch outs like on a car battery sticker.
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Well, obviously I am not as informed as I should be. Maybe it is a viable solution, or option. Thanks for the info. It would probably increase riding permit sales if they could do such a thing for sledders.
 
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whitedust

Well-known member
Yep Canada does it all the time with their time sensitive permits look at their model. To me enforcement is an excuse & should not block a 3 day permit. We want people to buy MI trail permits & not shy away from the area due to permit costs. I can say I have never been stopped while sleddin in UPMI since 1980 so to me what enforcement? It is more of an homor system IMO...do the right thing.:)
 
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russholio

Well-known member
whitedust said:
Yep Canada does it all the time with their time sensitive permits look at their model. To me enforcement is an excuse & should not block a 3 day permit. We want people to buy MI trail permits & not shy away from the area due to permit costs. I can say I have never been stopped while sleddin in UPMI since 1980 so to me what enforcement? It is more of an homor system IMO...do the right thing.:)
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My sentiments, too. I don't see why enforcement of temporary permits should be any different from season permits. But I've only been checked for permits once in 18 years of riding and during that time seen LEO's on the trails maybe a dozen times or so.

Make the temp permit a different color from the full season permits, and write in its effective dates with a permanent marker. If LEO checks a temp permit he/she can tell right away if the dates are valid. Of course, it would probably require a stop and not just a passing visual check.
 
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ridindirty800

Active member
I think the fee increase is having a larger affect then they expected. We take 3 club trips a year 40-60 people per trip. IN years past 30-40 would buy Michigan trail passes and go to the U.P and the past 2 about 10 have, the rest saying We will just ride Northern Wi and save the 45 bucks. I know 45 bucks is nothing when you price out what is cost to snowmobile, but to me the U.P is not worth 45 bucks for a couple days of riding. I think a lot more people who are not on John dee have this attitude. I figured with the U.P having the Best snow conditions around this year, even with the lack of snow they had that everybody would have been forced there but i guess that did not happen. Like john said sales may have been down in lower Michigan to. Just my 2 cents.
 
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ridindirty800

Active member
tomx said:
Several Wisconsin riders I know said they did not buy an MI permit due to the increase in price. I'll bet they're not the only ones who feel this way. Could have contributed to the decreased sales, but as others have said time will tell.
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Admin

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
I would just like to clear things up a bit too. Nowhere in the UP had a "good" snow year this past season. All areas were subjected to several, unusually strong thaws. There were periods where spots in the UP had good or even great conditions, but these good to great conditions did not exist for long periods of time in most cases.

Also, snowfall in most areas from around Marquette east was well below average and most areas east of Marquette would have been considered to have had a poor season.

Not saying that is the whole reason for the decrease, just saying it was a pretty poor snow season this year in the UP and lower MI.

-John
 
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russholio

Well-known member
ridindirty800 said:
Like john said sales may have been down in lower Michigan to.
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Pretty sure the 35% decline is statewide, not just the U.P.

The fee increase is likely part of it, but the lack of snow surely didn't help. Riding in the L.P. was severely limited this season.
 
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whitedust

Well-known member
Administrator said:
I would just like to clear things up a bit too. Nowhere in the UP had a "good" snow year this past season. All areas were subjected to several, unusually strong thaws. There were periods where spots in the UP had good or even great conditions, but these good to great conditions did not exist for long periods of time in most cases.

Also, snowfall in most areas from around Marquette east was well below average and most areas east of Marquette would have been considered to have had a poor season.

Not saying that is the whole reason for the decrease, just saying it was a pretty poor snow season this year in the UP and lower MI.

-John
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Flip side of that John is the rest of the midwest had little or no rideable snow so where you going to ride? IMO the best available area was UPMI & Northern WI. From my seat time you could ride the UPMI more than any other midwest trail area & conditions were pretty darn good...Traffic took its toll but all in all pretty good riding Central & Western UPMI. You have to take what you can get every year or you will be sitting in front of the TV hoping for better conditions that never happens. I agree lower MI did suffer condition wise but to be off by 35% goes deeper than snow conditions. All the snowmo biz owners in Central & Western UPMI that I talked to said they had outstanding seasons. Seasons of a lifetime with the only midwest area with snow to ride trails a biz owners dream come true & well deserved. Always will be trade offs depending on where snow falls & does not fall but 35% less permits goes deeper than snow conditions & MI weekend permit is a must to keep riders flowing thruout MI IMO.
 
Admin

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
whitedust said:
Flip side of that John is the rest of the midwest had little or no rideable snow so where you going to ride? IMO the best available area was UPMI & Northern WI. From my seat time you could ride the UPMI more than any other midwest trail area & conditions were pretty darn good...Traffic took its toll but all in all pretty good riding Central & Western UPMI. You have to take what you can get every year or you will be sitting in front of the TV hoping for better conditions that never happens. I agree lower MI did suffer condition wise but to be off by 35% goes deeper than snow conditions. All the snowmo biz owners in Central & Western UPMI that I talked to said they had outstanding seasons. Seasons of a lifetime with the only midwest area with snow to ride trails a biz owners dream come true & well deserved. Always will be trade offs depending on where snow falls & does not fall but 35% less permits goes deeper than snow conditions & MI weekend permit is a must to keep riders flowing thruout MI IMO.
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I agree, in a crappy season for the entire Midwest, the western UP and northern WI were the "least crappy" and benefited with good business. Most of the businesses I spoke with agreed with your findings that this season was very good.

My point (probably poorly put) was that all MI trail permits are not purchased only for the western UP and that because of consistently poor conditions elsewhere in the state, permit sales would likely be impacted negatively. Also, when snow is not good in all of the Midwest, folks are just not as in the mood to play in it as if the winter is going as most would like it. I will agree that it will also cause a concentration of riding where the snow is best, but good conditions in the western UP cannot make up for poor conditions in the rest of the state. It's a big state when you combine both the upper and lower!

I would be interested to know what permit sales were like in other states as a comparison.

-John
 
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ridindirty800

Active member
I would be interested to know what permit sales were like in other states as a comparison.

-John[/QUOTE]


That would be interesting. I wonder if someone can find that info out??
 
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whitedust

Well-known member
I'm sure permit sales were down with no wide spread snow in WI. WI had only the northern counties with snowcover for trail riding. Riding south of Tomahawk was very spotty & breif. Riders from Tomahawk WI area were opting to ride Western UPMI & Central UPMI for better trail conditions so they were buying MI permits. The hardcore rider will buy permits & make the most of any season. The casusal weekend riders will look for best snow & resorts for a given weekend & bang for the buck. If MI can exist with just the hardcore riders & does not need the permit revenue from the casual weekend riders alright with me. My only skin in the game is my time & less sled traffic is better for me. Revenue biz wise MI is keeping the casusal weekend riders out of MI due to high permit cost for 2-3 days of riding for multiple sleds IMO. To me a low cost 2-3 day permit is necessary to capture all the biz you can attract. In my marketing days 35% decrease in sales in 1 year would cause many sleepless nights until I knew I had a handle on the cause & I would be proactive for change in areas of known weakness. I would never wait for the other boot to fall like wait till next year & we will see & exspect a decrease in sales to fix itself. An inexpensive MI weekend permit is an excellent idea to capture any lost biz regardless of areas of MI that have good snow or not. Many riders have posted their objection to $45 for trail permits for multiple sleds for breif weekend riding in MI. Why ignor them & their revenue? They can't buy a less expensive weekend trail permit if MI will not sell it. Create it & they will come & spend money otherwise they will ride in WI & not cross over into MI due to cost of permits in both states.
 
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