'Water' effect snow.

[Willh]

Hi,

You may not know the answer to this...from looking around, it's hard to find a definitive answer beyond general regions. My question is - which specific, on a town by town basis, would seemingly have the best set up for some sort of water (lake, sea, ocean) effect snow?

I know places like Alta in Utah; Shinjo in Yamagata Prefecture Japan...etc, all have insane totals. I'm interested in isolating the synoptic level events started by ocean, etc, and focusing more on the consistent mesoscale lake/sea sort of thing. Where would you say is the best place on earth for [blank] effect snow?

~ Will

 

[jd]

Hi Will.

Unfortunately, I do not know the exact answer to this and in all honesty, the moisture for most snows that fall over land comes from some kind of body of water, be it a lake, sea or ocean. Some of those sources are just further away from the areas they can impact. However, if I understand your question correctly, you are thinking more about a close proximity between the body of water and town.

With that said, I would have to say that the mountains of SE Alaska (running from the Chugach just east of Anchorage to the SE into the AK panhandle south of Juneau) would be the region that probably has the highest annual snowfall in North America, if not the world. It is an area that gets a lot of storms, with heavy precip and the precip falls mainly as snow in elevations just above sea level, if not at sea level. However, I really do not know of any towns in the areas that would see the highest snowfall. Probably because of the severity of the winters and also the remoteness of the region.

Areas like Alta in Utah actually gets about 85-90% of its snow-moisture from the Pacific, with the rest being from the Great Salt Lake, as it takes a very specific atmospheric setup to cause lake effect to fall in the Little Cottonwood Canyon and other ski areas east of SLC.

Interesting question for sure!

-John

 

[Willh]

Thanks for the reply!

To be a bit more specific, though you did answer the question by and large - yes, I know that literally all snow is arrived at by essentially the components. I guess what I was focusing on is the more immediately micro/meso climate type situations. For example, the sort of snow that forms and falls in such a way that would not be possible without a body of water within the immediate vicinity. And yeah, I know even that is an iffy definition since people like to play up Snowshow WV getting some sort of lake effect/enhanced snowfall. But I think I know what you mean.

Actually - to word it a little better, I have seen you and others hypothesize about the effects UP if the Keweenaw was not there, or perhaps if the Keweenaw was a bit further east or west, etc. A better way to word my question then...what location in the world do you think has the best junction of geography, and climate to produce the sort of snow we get here or they get on the Tug.

Also, I found what you said about Alta pretty interesting but I'm guessing the answer is also far more complicated. I just find it curious why that one range in the middle of nowhere picks up such inordinately large snowfall totals if it gets the majority of its moisture the same way the rest of the Rockies do.

Thanks all the same!

 

[jd]

Hi Will

My knowledge of lake effect regions world wide is pretty limited, as it just does not get much attention paid to it, unless some LES falls in Buffalo, then it is major news! I would have to say that the Great Lakes are some of the largest lakes in the world that are also located in an area that can produce the atmospheric conditions for LES. Lake Superior is actually the largest lake in the world based on surface area, so I would venture to guess we here in the Keweenaw might just hold that world title! With the Tug Hill probably holding the title for the most extreme events.

There are several lakes in Canada that produce LES, such as Great Bear and Great Slave in the NW Territories. However, their seasons are early in the season (Oct mainly) and then the lake freeze over. Lake Winnipeg produces a bit, but then freezes over as does Lake Nipigon. I also know Lake Baikal in Russia produces some LES, but is quite narrow, so needs the optimal wind direction. While not labeled as lakes, the Black Sea and Caspian Sea also produce snow.

As for Alta. The mountains in the western US are a hugely different situation than most can imagine- unless someone has been there in the snow season. The orographic lift they create causes some incredible snow to fall, even though that air has already traveled over 100's of miles of land and several other mountain ranges.

I had a ski trip to Alta back in 1996 and was hoping to catch one of their famous big dumps, but it did not happen. The thing that amazed me was that in the Salt Lake Valley (where the city is), there was no snow on the ground at all and temps were in the 50's. We reached the mouth of the Little Cottonwood Canyon, which is a little higher in elevation than the valley and there was an inch or two on the ground, but yet we were only around 10 miles from Alta Ski resort. As we drove up the canyon and rapidly gained elevation, the snow got deeper and deeper and by the time we were at the ski resort, there was 15 feet on the ground on the level! The geological features of the canyon really enhance the orographic snow that falls, as it is pretty much west-east and is well suited for the low level winds that blow during most of their storm events.

A somewhat similar situation happens further north in far NW WY, where the ski area Grand Targhee gets snow that can rival that of Alta. In this case, there is no lake to add moisture. Just the semi-arid plains of southern Idaho. Interestingly enough, you have to drive through a small down named Alta, Wyoming to get to the ski area. The ski area is actually located on the western slopes of the Teton Mountains near Jackson.

-John

PS. If you ever want to get together to talk snow and weather, drop me a line, perhaps we can have a libation at the Michigan House or something like that.

 

[1fujifilm]

Hi Will

A somewhat similar situation happens further north in far NW WY, where the ski area Grand Targhee gets snow that can rival that of Alta. In this case, there is no lake to add moisture. Just the semi-arid plains of southern Idaho. Interestingly enough, you have to drive through a small down named Alta, Wyoming to get to the ski area. The ski area is actually located on the western slopes of the Teton Mountains near Jackson.

-John


John,
You just struck memories of mine and I like it.
My parents were Winter Olympiad fans and taught us to ski when we were young living in Sacramento, CA (skied Tahoe dozens of times).
Once we moved back to WI, my parents continued to take us skiing as young adults to Jackson Hole and Grand Targhee for the big verticle. When you drive from Jackson to G.T. you had to drive into Idaho via Driggs, ID to get around the side of the mountain and on to G.T.
Funny enough, this is my only visit to ID.
Our first trip out I took the tram to the top of J.H. and skied down, it took me 30 minutes as I had never skied powder that deep; Tahoe just didn't have that deep light snow feeling. It felt odd not to see your skis and trust you weren't going to run over a tree/rock 3 feet under. That snow was fluffy.

Oh well, great memories.

Bear

 

[jd]

Hi Will

A somewhat similar situation happens further north in far NW WY, where the ski area Grand Targhee gets snow that can rival that of Alta. In this case, there is no lake to add moisture. Just the semi-arid plains of southern Idaho. Interestingly enough, you have to drive through a small down named Alta, Wyoming to get to the ski area. The ski area is actually located on the western slopes of the Teton Mountains near Jackson.

-John


John,
You just struck memories of mine and I like it.
My parents were Winter Olympiad fans and taught us to ski when we were young living in Sacramento, CA (skied Tahoe dozens of times).
Once we moved back to WI, my parents continued to take us skiing as young adults to Jackson Hole and Grand Targhee for the big verticle. When you drive from Jackson to G.T. you had to drive into Idaho via Driggs, ID to get around the side of the mountain and on to G.T.
Funny enough, this is my only visit to ID.
Our first trip out I took the tram to the top of J.H. and skied down, it took me 30 minutes as I had never skied powder that deep; Tahoe just didn't have that deep light snow feeling. It felt odd not to see your skis and trust you weren't going to run over a tree/rock 3 feet under. That snow was fluffy.

Oh well, great memories.

Bear

Very cool!