My experience on the new signs

[Deleted member 10829]

Mark I can see alarm clock even read with my left eye but I have cataracts now so will have surgery before next season but I didn't want to miss any riding this year.lol Glasses still bring me to 20-20 with new s lens for riding & would be fine if fogging was not an issue. Tried contacts years ago & I could see like when I was a kid but could not put the dang things in my eye to save my life. Doc said many people have same problem with putting contacts in & just not for me.

LOL. I need surgery too, but on my elbow for severe tendanitis, but like you, I don't want to miss any sledding, and even more importantly, golf! Even though golf is the main cause of it (I play 130-210 rounds per year) it's also my favorite hobby, and that's only because you can do it 90%+ of the time. Thankfully it's not like snowmobiling that you can do 10% of the time! If I could do it over again, I would have had it done in November as I sure haven't missed any sledding.

 

[whitedust]

LOL. I need surgery too, but on my elbow for severe tendanitis, but like you, I don't want to miss any sledding, and even more importantly, golf! Even though golf is the main cause of it (I play 130-210 rounds per year) it's also my favorite hobby, and that's only because you can do it 90%+ of the time. Thankfully it's not like snowmobiling that you can do 10% of the time! If I could do it over again, I would have had it done in November as I sure haven't missed any sledding.

Yep me too & could have saved $1000 on new glasses but looked like a good start in Nov. Who knew?

 

[mride460]

Howdy, I see the areas you rode show where the most snow is, can you tell us how the trail conditions were please? Thanks!

We did our riding on Sat. and Sun. (Dec 29-30) Trail 8 thru Gwinn, Negaunee and Ishpeming was good. 8 closer to Chatham was wind blown and rough. 8 west of Ishpeming was good until you get to the swampy rocky parts near Michigamme and west thru the hilly powerline to Moose Mtn. (ungroomed and rough but fun) Tr. 5 was good with small patches of rough. 14 was good except close to Big Bay and Marquette. CR-510 and all other roads thru and around the Huron Mts area were great. (ice base with hard packed snow) Non-maintained roads still had 12-18" of untouched snow on them.. Hope this helps even though its a few days old info.

 

[wolfriver]

If the signs were already there why remove them. If they are trying to slow people down I guess it will after someone new to the area and sport misses a turn and hits a tree. I thought we were trying to make our sport safer for everybody.

 

[polarisrider1]

If the signs were already there why remove them. If they are trying to slow people down I guess it will after someone new to the area and sport misses a turn and hits a tree. I thought we were trying to make our sport safer for everybody.

Post 65 and we made a full circle back to post one.

 

[rv245]

Post 65 and we made a full circle back to post one.

Were there signs?

 

[polarisrider1]

Were there signs?

!

Yes there were! Signs of boredom.

 

[lenny]

A general statement :

removing the signs are an attempt to create an more aware sledder. Sighs tell people what to do and IMO the driver uses less of his senses because he depends on signs to show him how to respond to what he is about to see,,,not actually what he see but what he is about to see. It allows us to take advantage of the unseen surprise by a warning sign. Does no sign mean we would just pile into a tree because we didn't have the sense to respond to what we were seeing or could a sign possibly enable us to take advantage of the unseen in a different manner than what our actual eyes are telling us?

If we do not know what is ahead than we would caution at the unexpected instead of railing because we know it's there. The problem is not the actual presence or lack of a sign but how we interpret how to respond to the sign OR THE TRAIL ITSELF!

Without a sign only a lemming or extremely agressive person would just fly off the trail. Imagine riding down a trail and you see this trail going a different direction other than straight, what do you do? Just ride into a tree or do you consider where it may be leading you? What if you are going to fast and cannot react to what you are seeing? Do we blame the sled for being to fast or blame the trail for going the directing it is going. Could it just be the operator plain and simply F'ing up. Sighs were an attempt to protect people but not even a sign can help a distracted, careles,s drunken, speed freak. Some people disregard the help for many different reasons and some people make an honest mistake but that's not what we are talking about here

If we as a group of sledders sit here and complain about the lack of signs than maybe you don't have the sense to operate a sled in the first place. Slow the F down and don't pile into the woods for God's sake. You need to understand that it's not the same anymore and practice more caution or your gonna suffer and cause someone else to suffer. When you are walking down the street do you just risk where you go without thinking what is around the next corner. Do you just crumple down a flight of stairs or deliberately walk down the stairs with the intent of not harming yourself.

Signs or no signs, YOU NEED TO MAKE ADJUSTMENT NOW because some of the safety net is missing. Step up and protect yourself because you will be protecting me and I you. Complaining will not make you at less risk. Do what you need to do to not risk injury. Speed, booze, substances, adrenaline, no fear will contribute to injury and death, not a friggin sign or there lack of!

We call our mistakes "accidents" and have redefined the mistake to the degree the responsibility is placed out of order. Maybe we need foam pits and walls of tires, center dividers and guard rails to protect us from ourselves!

I for one would not have removed the signs if I were responsible for the trail system but in all honesty it is a common sense approach but that's just plain crazy these days.

 

[polarisrider1]

A general statement :

removing the signs are an attempt to create an more aware sledder. Sighs tell people what to do and IMO the driver uses less of his senses because he depends on signs to show him how to respond to what he is about to see,,,not actually what he see but what he is about to see. It allows us to take advantage of the unseen surprise by a warning sign. Does no sign mean we would just pile into a tree because we didn't have the sense to respond to what we were seeing or could it possibly enable us to take advantage of the unseen in a different manner than what our actual eyes are telling us.

If we do not know what is ahead than we would caution at the unexpected instead of railing because we know it's there. The problem is not the actual presence or lack of a sign but how we interpret how to respond to the sign OR THE TRAIL ITSELF!

Without a sign only a lemming or extremely stupid person would just fly off the trail. Imagine riding down a trail and you see this trail going a different direction other than straight, what do you do? Just ride into a tree or do you consider where it may be leading you? What if you are going to fast and cannot react to what you are seeing? Do we blame the sled for being to fast or blame the trail for going the directing it is going. Could it just be the operator plain and simply F'ing up. Sighs were an attempt to protect dumb people and give them a little help. Some people disregard the help for many different reasons.

If we as a group of sledders sit here and complain about the lack of signs than maybe you don't have the sense to operate a sled in the first place. Slow the F down and don't pile into the woods for God's sake. You need to understand that it's not the same anymore and practice more caution or your gonna suffer and cause someone else to suffer. When you are walking down the street do you just risk where you go without thinking what is around the next corner. Do you just crumple down a flight of stairs or deliberately walk down the stairs with the intent of not harming yourself.

Signs or no signs, YOU NEED TO MAKE ADJUSTMENT NOW because some of the safety net is missing. Step up and protect yourself because you will be protecting me and I you. Complaining will not make you at less risk. Do what you need to do to not risk injury. Speed, booze, substances, adrenaline, no fear will contribute to injury and death, not a friggin sign or there lack of!

Perfect, Thank you Lenny.

 

[Polarice]

His heated shield helps keep his eye glasses from fogging too?

This is what he told me. He has a Zeus helmet or something like that and said it helps just enough. This guy also rides in OH when there's snow. Rarely does he go north.

 

[Polarice]

A general statement :

removing the signs are an attempt to create an more aware sledder. Sighs tell people what to do and IMO the driver uses less of his senses because he depends on signs to show him how to respond to what he is about to see,,,not actually what he see but what he is about to see. It allows us to take advantage of the unseen surprise by a warning sign. Does no sign mean we would just pile into a tree because we didn't have the sense to respond to what we were seeing or could a sign possibly enable us to take advantage of the unseen in a different manner than what our actual eyes are telling us?

If we do not know what is ahead than we would caution at the unexpected instead of railing because we know it's there. The problem is not the actual presence or lack of a sign but how we interpret how to respond to the sign OR THE TRAIL ITSELF!

Without a sign only a lemming or extremely agressive person would just fly off the trail. Imagine riding down a trail and you see this trail going a different direction other than straight, what do you do? Just ride into a tree or do you consider where it may be leading you? What if you are going to fast and cannot react to what you are seeing? Do we blame the sled for being to fast or blame the trail for going the directing it is going. Could it just be the operator plain and simply F'ing up. Sighs were an attempt to protect people but not even a sign can help a distracted, careles,s drunken, speed freak. Some people disregard the help for many different reasons and some people make an honest mistake but that's not what we are talking about here

If we as a group of sledders sit here and complain about the lack of signs than maybe you don't have the sense to operate a sled in the first place. Slow the F down and don't pile into the woods for God's sake. You need to understand that it's not the same anymore and practice more caution or your gonna suffer and cause someone else to suffer. When you are walking down the street do you just risk where you go without thinking what is around the next corner. Do you just crumple down a flight of stairs or deliberately walk down the stairs with the intent of not harming yourself.

Signs or no signs, YOU NEED TO MAKE ADJUSTMENT NOW because some of the safety net is missing. Step up and protect yourself because you will be protecting me and I you. Complaining will not make you at less risk. Do what you need to do to not risk injury. Speed, booze, substances, adrenaline, no fear will contribute to injury and death, not a friggin sign or there lack of!

We call our mistakes "accidents" and have redefined the mistake to the degree the responsibility is placed out of order. Maybe we need foam pits and walls of tires, center dividers and guard rails to protect us from ourselves!

I for one would not have removed the signs if I were responsible for the trail system but in all honesty it is a common sense approach but that's just plain crazy these days.

This is not what the dnr told me. They said it was clutter.

Again I couldn't disagree more with this post. Create a more aware sledder? Come on dude...seriously?

This logic makes sense on paper just like socialism. Lets take away all the road signs for our cars to make more aware drivers. That doesn't make much sense does it? If you agree then your logic holds...if not...

 

[jr37]

Lenny, that is probably the most intelligent post on this thread yet.

 

[lenny]

This is not what the dnr told me. They said it was clutter.

Again I couldn't disagree more with this post. Create a more aware sledder? Come on dude...seriously?

This logic makes sense on paper just like socialism. Lets take away all the road signs for our cars to make more aware drivers. That doesn't make much sense does it? If you agree then your logic holds...if not...

Did we take away all the signs? How can you make this comparison? Most the signs are still there and have you seen some of the responses from sledders who have been riding the trail and have experienced it first hand. I believe someone said they didn't really see a difference. IMO the logic is sound and puts all the responsibility on the rider,, just where it needs to be. More people very well may die or become injured and if they do, unless it was an honest mistake, it could have been avoided. I agree we need signs, some more than others and some not at all. Anything that enters, crosses the trail is necessary. Most other issues can easily be navigated by a responsible sledder.

The nature of sleddin is the greatest contributor to personal injury. Sleds are extremely fun and extremely fast and I like it that way. Lets not continue to kill ourselves so our big brother starts to think he needs to regulate sled speeds like how most cars are regulated. Actually not sure if gov had anything to do with a cars top speed. Remember the old saying "speed kills" and don't we have speed limits now in some areas?

When we pass the buck of responsibility on anything other the the individual we will continue to have regulation after regulation to try an protect us and I myself have had enough. Regardless of the sign issue, lets do our best to stay safe and give no one a reason to mess with a great experience,,, snowmobiling.

Lenny out~ "we ride"

 

[Highflyer]

Did we take away all the signs? How can you make this comparison? Most the signs are still there and have you seen some of the responses from sledders who have been riding the trail and have experienced it first hand. I believe someone said they didn't really see a difference. IMO the logic is sound and puts all the responsibility on the rider,, just where it needs to be. More people very well may die or become injured and if they do, unless it was an honest mistake, it could have been avoided. I agree we need signs, some more than others and some not at all. Anything that enters, crosses the trail is necessary. Most other issues can easily be navigated by a responsible sledder.



The nature of sleddin is the greatest contributor to personal injury. Sleds are extremely fun and extremely fast and I like it that way. Lets not continue to kill ourselves so our big brother starts to think he needs to regulate sled speeds like how most cars are regulated. Actually not sure if gov had anything to do with a cars top speed. Remember the old saying "speed kills" and don't we have speed limits now in some areas?

When we pass the buck of responsibility on anything other the the individual we will continue to have regulation after regulation to try an protect us and I myself have had enough. Regardless of the sign issue, lets do our best to stay safe and give no one a reason to mess with a great experience,,, snowmobiling.

Lenny out~ "we ride"

Well said on both of your recent post.

 

[united]

I just don't buy it. There is an old saying that a man has two reasons for doing something, a good reason and the real reason. I just can't buy that the MSA/DNR started with the goal of trying to slow people down and worked backwards to the point of removing signs. That seems more like the spin/good reason rather than the real one.

I don't know about the other "reasons" either. Less clutter, no bumps on either sides of bridges, more alert riders also sound more like effects (or good reasons) rather than the original cause.

There is another old saying, follow the money. Do less signs mean less costs or less liabilities? I don't know that either. I know we all can agree that this is very confusing on many levels.

 

[Highflyer]

I just don't buy it. There is an old saying that a man has two reasons for doing something, a good reason and the real reason. I just can't buy that the MSA/DNR started with the goal of trying to slow people down and worked backwards to the point of removing signs. That seems more like the spin/good reason rather than the real one.

I don't know about the other "reasons" either. Less clutter, no bumps on either sides of bridges, more alert riders also sound more like effects (or good reasons) rather than the original cause.

There is another old saying, follow the money. Do less signs mean less costs or less liabilities? I don't know that either. I know we all can agree that this is very confusing on many levels.

Its only confusing if you make it that way. Most guys who have been out riding claim that they didn't even realize it. How is that confusing?

You listed several possible reasons on why the DNR might have taken down some signs. The real reason is probably a combination of all them: less clutter, less money on signs, less liability and trying to slow people down. All of these reason seem rather practical to me. Just because a DNR rep didn't list off every single one of these reason in a interview or to someone doesn't mean he was lying or had a hidden agenda.

I never thought I would be on here defending the DNR for anything and I avoided the original threads on this topic because quite frankly I don't care about the signs but the constant whining about a few less signs is pathetic. Learn how to ride the trails under your level of ability and take responisbilty for your own actions. Its not always someone else's fault when things are not perfect for you.

 

[united]

Ha. I do not believe there is some hidden conspiracy agenda and I do not believe that a combination of all of the reasons listed are the real cause or real reasons why they were changed. In my opinion that is what makes it confusing. It seems no real reason has been given, so everybody comes up with their own reason, slow down, pay more attention, less clutter, do this do that, let the whining begin.

Personally I like the idea from the other thread. Only 2 signs, orange confidence markers to delineate the trail and yellow ride at your own risk signs. I know that is ridiculous but at least it is simple.

Far be for me to look to Europe for an example on how to do things, but in some places it is completely legal to ski off-trail and illegal to sue anyone if you injure yourself while off-trail. I think the liability laws should be changed so if you want to be stupid and hurt yourself only that is up to you, but you cannot sue someone else because you chose to be stupid.

 

[lenny]

I just called the Superior Snowmobile club president Mike Sabo and ask him the reason for taking the signs down. The was a meeting in Barage this last September and and all the clubs in the region had an opportuniy to listen to the reason for removing some signs, MSA was there also,, oh yea, dnr,,, duhhhh.

The reason is to promote safe riding and not to rely on signs,,,not my words but right from the meeting. Mike said all the Chevron signs were removed which are the same sort of sign you see on our roadways on turns. The turn (Chevron) signs were replaced with an arrow sign and mainly on the sharper turns with the slight corners with no signs. Bridge signs are gone now also which maybe should have stayed but we are here now,, so what to do?

He made no mention of trail clutter or expense,, there ya go,,,no more guessing

 

[700classic]

Yeaa, Lenny! There still is someone out there that makes sense!
I rode Grand Marais area between Xmas and New Years Eve and didn't really notice a difference(except the bridges). Ride sanely and things will be just fine!

 

[ktm909]

Once again any traffic safety engineers on board here, I know we are not driving on the road in a car where you can not over drive your head lights and the roads are almost always in a reasonable weather condition, but we are on snowmobiles where the vision is always perfect, and weather or snow dust never comes into play. So I guess very little in the way of information is the best way to go. Also I know that all of the 16,813 members on here are all that there are on the trails and they are of the safest of the riders because we each say we are, so we should all be able to navigate trails that we might have never been on. Oh yea there are alot more out there not just our little cross section of the snowmobile community who impact our ride. On a serious note, as the mmutcd(Michigan manual for Uniform Traffic Control Devises) teachs us in the road maintenance/construction industry that an educated driver is a safe one, I think all stops, curves and crossings should be marked to the best of our abilities. I understand this will bring on the I know all the trails and can get through them just fine arguments, but we are not all of the same skill set especially while riding in ever changing conditions. Please take a second to really think about are sport and its inherint risks, and think of yourself as an ambassodor to the outside world and try to tell them to go ride one of our great trails and just think of how confused they we be after a ride on one of our more twisty trails. Do you really think they would come back and say it was easy/safe to get around? I would not want someone who went to a rental shop and had their first ride to be there last because we did not care enough to take the number one thing into account which is rider safety. P.S. I believe there are two main issues behind this, one is a liabilty, legal issue, and second is a monetary one which these together go hand in hand in the interest of the lawyer/politican
Sorry for being long winded
Please ride safe
Chris