I'm not going to repeat every thing Lenny just posted.I feel a bought the same on this subject,as he has posted. On dec 30 2012,4 of us set off from Sidnaw to the bug bar,we all made it back. 44 yr.old 14yr.old,17yr.old ,and a 50 something ,and we are all "city slickers".I didn't even notice the change. We normally ride forest roads , were you use a compass to find your way around! Just adjust to the change or don't ride in MI.
My experience on the new signs
- Thread starter Polarice
- Start date
Agree my main concern is oncoming traffic & how & when I set up for a turn when Ricky comes out of a turn wide. Dusk, sun in eyes,snowdust,low contrast does affect older riders but this is difficult for younger riders to understand since they have optimum sight. Trail markings are for all us not just those in their prime. I think I will do fine with less signs but do have concerns about being defensive in corners for the mistake someone else makes. I often look thru the trees in the twistys to pick up oncoming sleds before turns & can sight a group long before they see me so I can preplan approach. Less signed marked turns is just less information to use to use in a positive manner in high traffic conditions.
snobuilder
Well-known member
Best of luck to all because you will need a little more this year than last.
The fact that no sledder every said "hey...I think trail signage should be removed" and i doubt anyone can point out a single thread on this VERY active sled site to that affect, says it all.
IMO the crazy idiot ricky racers will be on YOUR side of the trail now more than ever.
The fact that no sledder every said "hey...I think trail signage should be removed" and i doubt anyone can point out a single thread on this VERY active sled site to that affect, says it all.
IMO the crazy idiot ricky racers will be on YOUR side of the trail now more than ever.
Ditto.
In my humble estimation, the way some of them ride I doubt they paid much attention to the signs. But now that there are even less warnings, there's even less chance they will pay attention to them.
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lenny
Guest
It's hard to say, Ricky is not a stupid rider, just loves to go fast, can he go fast and safe? some can and some make mistakes,,,time will tell
snobuilder
Well-known member
still beating the horse here....LOL but...i mark trails and always like to use the chevron sign. Next to the Stop and stop ahead sign I think it is the best used warning available. When I see the chevron facing me I slow way down because of the very fact that it is straight ahead a me and says " If you blow this one yur in the pickers for sure.....or worse!" Eliminating the chevron was a big mistake.
IMO i don't think this whole idea was thought through or discussed with much rational at all. In fact I wonder how many end users were surveyed/consulted about this bold move.
Did the powers that be think to ask the many snowmobilers with 10's of thousands of logged trail miles what they thought of this gem of an idea?...I doubt it, in fact I doubt the final judgement was made by a snowmobiler at all.
Maybe lenny can tell us who exactly (with names/position)was responsible for the initial idea, who was consulted and who had the final say. No one on here has claimed they were asked there thoughts and that is unfortunate because the real experts in snowmobiling are in fact the end user...not someone who simply likes administrative power.
IMO i don't think this whole idea was thought through or discussed with much rational at all. In fact I wonder how many end users were surveyed/consulted about this bold move.
Did the powers that be think to ask the many snowmobilers with 10's of thousands of logged trail miles what they thought of this gem of an idea?...I doubt it, in fact I doubt the final judgement was made by a snowmobiler at all.
Maybe lenny can tell us who exactly (with names/position)was responsible for the initial idea, who was consulted and who had the final say. No one on here has claimed they were asked there thoughts and that is unfortunate because the real experts in snowmobiling are in fact the end user...not someone who simply likes administrative power.
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No, simply riding fast does not mean stupid, but if somebody rides too fast for the conditions (or challenges that the trail presents) or beyond their abilities, I would call that stupid.
Few, if any, and no (to the best of my knowledge), respectively.
uncle_ed
Active member
I have been reading the same threads year in and year out about "ricky racers" and "stay on your side", etc and especially as of late it has been a problem for the DNR and the state to make the trails a safe place for all who want to enjoy this sport. Families with their kids and those who think the trail is a challenge based on speed all have the same right to use the trail but how do you make it so everyone can enjoy them at the same time? Law enforcement does not have the manpower to police the trails with radar guns and write tickets as they do in Canada. I think that somebody sat down somewhere and said what can we do to fix this problem and this was one of the solutions they came up with.
If that's the case, the DNR has not stated that.
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lenny
Guest
Here ya go bud,, read up!
| [h=2]DNR improves trail signage for this season's ORV, snowmobile riders[/h][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Contact: [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Steve Kubisiak, 517-373-1665 or Ed Golder, 517-335-3014 [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Agency:[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Natural Resources[/SIZE][/FONT] |
June 18, 2012 The Department of Natural Resources announced today that snowmobile and off-road vehicle (ORV) trail riders will soon notice a reduction in the types of trail markings along the more than 10,000 miles of Michigan's designated motorized trail system. The DNR implemented these changes to improve safety and provide consistent guidance to the more than 90 non-profit organizations that maintain the trails. A citizens' advisory workgroup (comprised of trail-riding enthusiasts, trail maintenance organizations, members of the DNR's Snowmobile Advisory Workgroup and the Michigan Snowmobile Association) made recommendations to the DNR, resulting in these upcoming changes. Technical support for the workgroup was provided by recreation and law enforcement staff of the DNR and the U.S. Forest Service. Changes include the elimination of 10 workgroup-selected snowmobile signs, the addition of five new snowmobile signs (plus guidelines for placement), and a reduction in the size of regulatory signs in the ORV program to make them consistent with snowmobile signage (already implemented in 2011). The changes also include replacing ORV trail markers with new, highly visible, yellow markers. Installation will be phased in over the next several years. The following snowmobile trail signs will be removed:
According to Bill Manson, executive director of the Michigan Snowmobile Association, "Several of the other snowmobile states and Ontario have reduced their signs and have seen a reduction in accidents. Our objective is to provide a safe, family-oriented trail system for snowmobiling in Michigan." "The changes to the motorized trail signage program is the result of a collaborative process with stakeholder groups and should be a real improvement for trail users," said Ron Olson, chief of the DNR's Parks and Recreation Division. "The sign reductions will result in less clutter along the trails and provide for more consistency statewide." In addition, new ORV trail confidence markers will be phased in over the next several years as funding allows. The new ORV trail markers will be yellow to distinguish them from snowmobile trails. For additional information, please contact Steve Kubisiak, DNR Recreation and Trails Program coordinator at 517-373-1665 or via e-mail at kubisiaks@michigan.gov. The Recreation Passport is an easy, affordable way for residents to enjoy and support outdoor recreation opportunities in Michigan. By checking "YES" for the $10 Recreation Passport ($5 for motorcycles) when renewing a license plate through the Secretary of State (by mail, kiosk, online atwww.expresssos.com or at branch offices), Michigan motorists get access to state parks, recreation areas, state forest campgrounds, nonmotorized state trailhead parking and state boat launches. In addition, Recreation Passport holders can enjoy real savings at businesses and retailers that participate in the Passport Perks discount program. The Recreation Passport is valid until the next license plate renewal date. Nonresidents can purchase the Recreation Passport ($29 annual; $8 daily) at any state park or recreation area or through the Michigan e-Store atwww.michigan.gov/estore. Learn more about this creative way of sustaining Michigan's outdoor recreation and natural resources at www.michigan.gov/recreationpassport. For information on Passport Perks shopping discounts or how businesses and retailers can enroll in the program, visitwww.michigan.gov/passportperks. The Michigan Department of Natural Resources is committed to the conservation, protection, management, use and enjoyment of the state's natural and cultural resources for current and future generations. For more information, go to www.michigan.gov/dnr. |
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lenny
Guest
make some phone calls people, there is a number for you to make your displeasure unknown.
Right the people of MI can choose. Nothing is set in stone. Removing existing signs just seems counterintuitive to me. What was the original objective? To make the trails safe? Well that is a good reason, but it seems like there should be more to it. Why does the original objective matter? So we can tell if it was achieved.
Post #131 has a release from the DNR website.
From the above DNR release -
"According to Bill Manson, executive director of the Michigan Snowmobile Association, "Several of the other snowmobile states and Ontario have reduced their signs and have seen a reduction in accidents. Our objective is to provide a safe, family-oriented trail system for snowmobiling in Michigan."
From uppermichiganssource.com -
"After studying similar programs in Wisconsin and Ontario, the Michigan Snowmobile Association found a decrease in signage led to a decrease in accidents."
I don't recall the sign reduction program in WI. The speed limit in Ontario is 31.07 mph, approximately 4 mph faster than Usain Bolt's top running speed. I think if you removed signage where the speed limit is 31.07 mph it might help, but it is apples to oranges compared to MI.
From the above DNR release -
"…said Ron Olson, chief of the DNR's Parks and Recreation Division. "The sign reductions will result in less clutter along the trails and provide for more consistency statewide."
There is the clutter removal.
From Bill Manson Executive Director of the Michigan Snowmobile Association Executive Director's Desk on the Michigan Snowmobile Association website www.msasnow.org -
"Issues are arising when a sign falls down. Lawsuits are being filed because other curves were signed."
Post #131 has a release from the DNR website.
From the above DNR release -
"According to Bill Manson, executive director of the Michigan Snowmobile Association, "Several of the other snowmobile states and Ontario have reduced their signs and have seen a reduction in accidents. Our objective is to provide a safe, family-oriented trail system for snowmobiling in Michigan."
From uppermichiganssource.com -
"After studying similar programs in Wisconsin and Ontario, the Michigan Snowmobile Association found a decrease in signage led to a decrease in accidents."
I don't recall the sign reduction program in WI. The speed limit in Ontario is 31.07 mph, approximately 4 mph faster than Usain Bolt's top running speed. I think if you removed signage where the speed limit is 31.07 mph it might help, but it is apples to oranges compared to MI.
From the above DNR release -
"…said Ron Olson, chief of the DNR's Parks and Recreation Division. "The sign reductions will result in less clutter along the trails and provide for more consistency statewide."
There is the clutter removal.
From Bill Manson Executive Director of the Michigan Snowmobile Association Executive Director's Desk on the Michigan Snowmobile Association website www.msasnow.org -
"Issues are arising when a sign falls down. Lawsuits are being filed because other curves were signed."
snobuilder
Well-known member
Reading between the lines has me thinking the snow trail marker totals were reduced to provide funds for additional ORV route signage.
This SAW group is the DNR correct. Why don't they publish publicly what you stated was in the 'minutes' in April? Where can I locate the minutes?
Not sure how it works exactly. SAW some type of subcommittee I think.
Here is this beauty from the February 21, 2012 meeting minutes:
"The SAW is working with DNR staff (Steve Kubisiak) regarding the budget and will analyze the information at the June 19 meeting; Sharon Schaffer, Chief, Finance and Operations, will be in attendance. The final draft of the Michigan Motorized Trail Sign Handbook includes less signs (less cost, less follow up) and is estimated to save a couple thousand dollars. Sign orders are due in April."
And here is the link to the minutes
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-39002_56382_56384---,00.html
Here is this beauty from the February 21, 2012 meeting minutes:
"The SAW is working with DNR staff (Steve Kubisiak) regarding the budget and will analyze the information at the June 19 meeting; Sharon Schaffer, Chief, Finance and Operations, will be in attendance. The final draft of the Michigan Motorized Trail Sign Handbook includes less signs (less cost, less follow up) and is estimated to save a couple thousand dollars. Sign orders are due in April."
And here is the link to the minutes
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-39002_56382_56384---,00.html
fusionfool
New member
I know the removal of signs was a long process. Back at first of the year 2010 we were in Dan's Polaris (Houghton) waiting on my sled to be fixed. People were in Dan's talking about the proposal to remove signs back then. At that time we were talking to the people in the shop, it was stated that environmentalist were the drivers of the idea not wanting the unsightly signs / clutter along the trails. We all thought how stupid the idea was and it would not happen. Walked out of three thinking it was strange, and just gossip, now we know the reality. I am sure to bring the signs back would take just as long, or longer.