Good and bad to both sides. I pay for Wisconsin and Michigan every year, some years I sled a lot and its a bargain, some years low snow and not such a bargain. Honestly, I love the sport so I pay but yes it could be done differently. I am an avid boater in the summer and if I added up the two budgets, sleddin looks cheap! But, i choose to spend the money and I understand that some people can't afford the luxury of snowmobiling.
Trail permits
- Thread starter Pitch
- Start date
Whitedust;
That's my point exactly. I didn't post the thread with the intention of finding out who rides the most expensive sleds or who buys the most expensive oil and Klim gear. Like my father always said, "A fool and their money soon part". I do have some trail signs that I would sell, only because I got them "cheap". Does anyone have any ideas how to remove caked on gravel from the rear snow flap?
That's my point exactly. I didn't post the thread with the intention of finding out who rides the most expensive sleds or who buys the most expensive oil and Klim gear. Like my father always said, "A fool and their money soon part". I do have some trail signs that I would sell, only because I got them "cheap". Does anyone have any ideas how to remove caked on gravel from the rear snow flap?
polarisrider1, thanks for posting the info, I guess some will just not accept the $45 fee or how Mi. runs their trail system. I suggest they become involved on a board in a local club to see how hard it is to run a program, then I suggest they start a thread in the western riding thread and complain that if you ride say in the Island Park area you have to buy at least 2 state permits and up to 3 state permits to ride in that area and they are sold on a yearly basis.Because some of their trails run through 3 states. Again it comes down to whom is going to patrol sleds to check that they are riding with the proper "color" or however they would code it.There is always ways to cheat the system and where would that lead to, how much money would really go to the program, we had guests that would by a permit , not apply it to their sled and take the chance of not getting caught and then pass it on to their friends coming up the following week, sure they saved $'s but short changed the program, so in the end when funds aren't there to work on trails or keep up with equipment and trails aren't groomed to their liking or others, who suffers, the trail program, local businesses, and whom they employee.It's like shop lifting to some it's acceptable because the company can afford it or write it off, but in the end we as well as them pay for it in the price. You hit it on the economy , that has hit Mich. hard ,10 years ago we were booming, and these low snow years have hit us all hard, for the past 4 weeks here in our area we are a ghost town, sled rentals sit idle, hotels, resorts, sit empty, workers are laid off from wait staff, to gas station atendents, to cleaning staff, to mechcanics, the list goes on, you can't imagine a 1 day loss for all of us. THIS NO SNOW SEASON HAS EVERYONE ON EDGE, but really stop to think of what everything costs these days, a loaf of bread and a gallon of milk in some areas costs 1 hour of work for a min. wage earner!
Thanks Indy I like that option always in ER.
xsledder
Active member
Here food for thought with the just pay it crowd. I have a 45K tow vehicle that pulls a 4K 12 year old inline with four sleds, three bought new but non-current for $5,000 to $8,800 each and a fourth one bought used. Now, lets talk ROI. Yes, $45 is not a complete deal breaker but I have options to ride in any state I want; be it Wisconsin, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, South Dakota, Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado, New York, New Hampshire, New Mexico, and even Canada that I can reach in the luxury of my 45K tow vehicle. I have options, get the picture. I've ridden in Wisconsin, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Wyoming, and Idaho. So there are many more states for me to ride in. To me, to pay $45 to ride on basically the same trails as Wisconsin, Iowa, and Minnesota doesn't provide me much insentive to ride in Michigan. So, I'll gladdy take my money including the $45 for the Michigan permit and go out west, east, southwest, or over the border to something I haven't done before.
I understand it costs money to maintain trails, I'm not an idiot and I'm the First VP of my local club. What you have to realize, which Detriot missed in the eighties with automobiles, is that I have options and I will exercise them like a lot of people in the eighties buying Japanese cars. If you want people to come, you have to make the $45 worth something and attrach them with something other then Pure Michigan advertising down here. Maybe publish open boondocking areas on your map. Iron County Wisconsin is doing that.
Not being mean but food for thought.
I understand it costs money to maintain trails, I'm not an idiot and I'm the First VP of my local club. What you have to realize, which Detriot missed in the eighties with automobiles, is that I have options and I will exercise them like a lot of people in the eighties buying Japanese cars. If you want people to come, you have to make the $45 worth something and attrach them with something other then Pure Michigan advertising down here. Maybe publish open boondocking areas on your map. Iron County Wisconsin is doing that.
Not being mean but food for thought.
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Very well put xsledder.
I have actually been in touch with our State Representative Tom Casperson on this issue. To me there is a market for a limited-term pass in MI, especially for the areas that border WI, but even for all areas of MI as it has been pointed out that MI is not the only state a person can choose from to snowmobile in. There are some complexities that a limited-term pass would present, but nothing that cannot be overcome when some good thinking heads come together to find a solution.
I honestly do not know what will become of the idea, but just thought that I would toss it out there that some in places of power to make changes do know about this issue, recognize there is a valid issue and are willing to look into solutions.
-John
I have actually been in touch with our State Representative Tom Casperson on this issue. To me there is a market for a limited-term pass in MI, especially for the areas that border WI, but even for all areas of MI as it has been pointed out that MI is not the only state a person can choose from to snowmobile in. There are some complexities that a limited-term pass would present, but nothing that cannot be overcome when some good thinking heads come together to find a solution.
I honestly do not know what will become of the idea, but just thought that I would toss it out there that some in places of power to make changes do know about this issue, recognize there is a valid issue and are willing to look into solutions.
-John
Well pitch the info PR1 posted makes a discounted limited time MI trail permit cost prohibitive at this time. As an old sales & marketing guy I always look at the numbers that support the creation of a product to lever & expand a given market. In this case at this time just no ROI to offset admin. costs & other overhead so beating a dead horse a this point in time & market conditions. Looks like $45 for now for a MI trail permit & we all know what will a happen in the near future as costs move up. Maybe market conditions will change & MI will have a a part time trail permit but not in the budget for now.
polarisrider1
New member
What's a fair price to you?
indy_500
Well-known member
Actually, go across the border and ride in a new area and report back to us how much you paid for that trail pass LOL bet $45 will seem like pocket change.
indy_500
Well-known member
That's because the seasonal permit is $260 LOL
polarisrider1
New member
Well pitch the info PR1 posted makes a discounted limited time MI trail permit cost prohibitive at this time. As an old sales & marketing guy I always look at the numbers that support the creation of a product to lever & expand a given market. In this case at this time just no ROI to offset admin. costs & other overhead so beating a dead horse a this point in time & market conditions. Looks like $45 for now for a MI trail permit & we all know what will a happen in the near future as costs move up. Maybe market conditions will change & MI will have a a part time trail permit but not in the budget for now.
Thank you, Sell the sizzle and not the steak! (College professor told me no money in economics unless I teach it) so here I am, Mraketing after all these years.
For the guys who can't afford the $45 permit, your loss and thank you for giving Indy500 more trail space! If we had a ton of snow right now it would amaze me how you guys come about the $45 so quickly. Some would be complaining in here if the permit was free, that's life.
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I've been riding in MI and the Keweenaw since before the cash went 100% to the clubs. I believe those were the days that the state did the grooming. It wasn't long ago....maybe 10 years. The trails were JUNK. Deep snow but huge bumps. Terrible.
Those same trails today are mint 95% of the time. I can't believe the change since moving to club groomed trails. I've seen no other area that grooms as well as the area between Mass City and Copper Harbor. Anywhere.
I also look at my options when paying $45 for a sticker. If I feel I have better options here we may stay. Because of fuel costs and trail stickers our group of 12 has stayed home....when we have rideable snow ($540 in revenue). It all adds up for us too!
I definitely appreciate the changes that have been made to improve the trail system, and feel for those businesses suffering as a result of no snow. At the end of the day the money well only goes so deep. And everyone wants their fair share.
Those same trails today are mint 95% of the time. I can't believe the change since moving to club groomed trails. I've seen no other area that grooms as well as the area between Mass City and Copper Harbor. Anywhere.
I also look at my options when paying $45 for a sticker. If I feel I have better options here we may stay. Because of fuel costs and trail stickers our group of 12 has stayed home....when we have rideable snow ($540 in revenue). It all adds up for us too!
I definitely appreciate the changes that have been made to improve the trail system, and feel for those businesses suffering as a result of no snow. At the end of the day the money well only goes so deep. And everyone wants their fair share.
Numbers are numbers & if MSA & MI don't see the ROI of a part time trail permit or an agreement with other states that is profitable to all a parties then will not happen. Is MI missing out on revenue YES but only MSA & MI can tell me if the numbers make sense. What really hurts is the border MI/WI snomo biz areas are the real losers to incremental revenue. The question is does MI have a way to measure that to help off set some of the part time permit costs thru tax revenue? I sure don't know but then MI & MSA should know.
If this was a great snow year we would not be having this conversation. With that said I used to buy a trail pass every year right when they came out in October even though I ride primarily off trail. At $45 I won't buy one until I know I will be needing it.
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polarisrider1
New member
It really would not be fair to use tax revenue to fund trails when Michigan has so many more important issues that need repair and funding such as Roads, , etc.
Borders are always an issue, I remember taking the family to Drummond Island and riding the north side (ice) to the border of Canada but not into Canada because 5 sleds would of cost me $1000 for permits. So I thought, well this can only go on for so long and trucked the family up to Wawa and spent the grand the following year. Stayed at the Northern Lights Motel for a week and incorporated it into two one week trips. The kids talk about this and what a great time they had up there all the time. To me that is what money is for, creating memories that are for you and your loved ones. Sure that was a lot of money for a guy with 3 kids at home, a gas guzzling Suburban with a 454 pulling a steel enclosed trailer (6mpg). Do I remember total costs.........no....... don't even care. Do I remember the happy kids and do they remember those times, YES. then it was worth it. At the time I probable had to work three months to pay for those 2 trips. If the guys who have issues over $45 permits, well maybe this is not for them.
D
Deleted member 10829
Guest
I'm just curious, are there any other state's that offer 3 day passes or other options? I'm not aware of any. Also, how far down the trail do you think that groomer can run on the $45 you paid to ride nice smooth trails? Not very far. It's a steal.
PR1 we are saying the same thing but I'm not tying increased part time permits biz directly to trail funds. MI increased tax revenue to incremental snomo biz dollars is benefical to MI & can help pay for whatever they want some is bound to trickle down to trails & helps the big picture while part time users get what they want. Yes gray area but win/win.
garyl62
Active member
Good question and well said about the groomer!
polarisrider1
New member
No states that I know of, but maybe New York????. Ontario offers 3 day passes.
For what everything costs in this sport, I can't believe $45 is an issue. If it's not $45, what's it gonna be, $25. So would the extra $20 be that big of a deal. Even if there was a 3-5 day trail pass, it would never be less than $20-$25. For 20 bucks, leave it alone. You can bet a 3-5 day pass would not be $5.