It's not your land-DON'T RIDE ON IT!

[classicchick]

I can't understand how anyone has the nerve to ride all over private lands..the rude riders came through yesterday late afternoon. They're lucky we didn't see they had ridden all through our
young tree planted area or we'd been able to catch them but we didn't notice where they came from...we weren't looking out our window at the time. Yup! They rode right through our property
like they owned it! Cruising the edge looking for trails and exploring. There were 4 of them. There's no public land out our way and I'm sure they could see from the presence of homes that it
was all privately owned. Somehow it doesn't seem fair that we should have to buy private property signs and spend our time posting and fencing our land when we own the land. O.K. so they
had a good time at our expense, maybe broke off some of the trees we planted...so what? Well, it just intensifies my distaste for off-trail riders. On our other planted lands, we had to circle our
fields with rope and ribbons and signs...no small chore to be sure, or expense but we didn't think we'd have to do that in the field that is almost part of our yard!!!! This year we caught only one person
cruising on our fenced fields and thought that was it for the season but with the late season riding came those rude, inconsiderate, ignorant explorers, thinking it's o.k. I'm angry and frustrated.

 

[Dave_B]

Don't let four morons sway your opinion of off trail riders.
What they did was obviously not right but, the majority of off trail riders know where to go and not to go. Those guys, I'm sure, aren't even on here so, while I appreciate and understand the frustration, this is the wrong tree to climb.
I hope it doesn't happen again!
Dave

 

[ezra]

but I bought a sticker

 

[gary_in_neenah]

Classic Chick, You have every reason to be angry and I hope the trees survive. I'd like to give the "morons" the benefit of doubt as maybe they were lost, but most likely not. I'll probably get Flamed for what follows here but it's been something that's been on my mind for some time so here goes.

I'm a Trail Rider. I don't like to be stuck, I don't like to bounce off of trees, rocks, and stumps. I llike to put on 150 smooth miles in a day followed by a hot meal, a couple of cold beverages, and get up and do it again the next day. I ride on marked trails that cross private lands, of which I'm grateful, along with the public lands that complete the network of trails from Point A to Point B. As long as I'm on a marked trail, I know that I have permission to be there.

I have no problem with Off Trail Riders, they enjoy the sport as much as I do and they help support the tourism industry just as the Trail guys do. I should also mention that our host here, John Dee prefers to mix it up out in the boonies too. Just so we're clear here, I don't have anything against any snowmobiler, even the morons, for what else would we have to complain about during the off season.

Here's my point. How do you know when you're crossing a property line when you're out in the middle of nowhere Off Trail surrounded by trees, hills, and whatnot? As in the case of Classic Chick, here come's Darrel, Darrel, and his other brother Darrel with a 4th guy. Either they're lost or they don't care, and should know better. I realize that there are large tracts of public land in all states but sooner or later that ends and private land begins. Sometimes it's a road or natural feature, but many times there is no marker and Bam!! You're in Classic Chick's young trees again. The question is.... unless you have "specific knowledge" of the area and property owners, how do you know?

OK, I'm done, Flame Away!!

 

[polarisrider1]

Gary, in answering your question, They don't know. I hope that is not going to be the trend. Some idiots tresspassed, we here on JDee know right from wrong. Nothing any of us say can fix what happened. All we can do is try to educate our fellow sledders to respect the land whether it it public or private. The behavior of those 4 is a black eye to all snowmobilers.

 

[switch07]

Gary, I started a thread a while back about " you might be a moron " stating the fact about people trespassing right next to stay on trail signs.....and got flamed good. It really didn't hurt much, lol. The point is, if people go off trail right next to signs instructing them not too, what chance do we have keeping them out of the chicks property. Sooner or later these people will ruin it for all of us and our sport will cease to exist.

 

[r/l groomer]

Earlier this snow season we here in southern Wisconsin had most of the snow and we paided dearly for it. Late season we had good snow and very little off trail riding, but the U.P. had good snow for off trail riders. The damage is done down here, allot of land owners are upset, and I don't blame them one bit. I know of one trail is gone for next season in our club.
I see allot of cross breed sleds I think they're called good for both type of riders out there these past years while out grooming.
PLEASE TELL ME THE ANSWER for this problem, I know education of riders,but........
Thank you classic chick for bringing this up, and very sorry for what damage those riders did.
Howie

 

[craze1cars]

Here's my point. How do you know when you're crossing a property line when you're out in the middle of nowhere Off Trail surrounded by trees, hills, and whatnot? As in the case of Classic Chick, here come's Darrel, Darrel, and his other brother Darrel with a 4th guy. Either they're lost or they don't care, and should know better. I realize that there are large tracts of public land in all states but sooner or later that ends and private land begins. Sometimes it's a road or natural feature, but many times there is no marker and Bam!! You're in Classic Chick's young trees again. The question is.... unless you have "specific knowledge" of the area and property owners, how do you know?

I do a fair amount off trail.

Direct answer to your question is remarkably easy usually (but costs money). A U.S. Topographical/forest service map, and state maps, either inexpensively on paper (available thru DNR and USFS) or even better/easier but MUCH more expensive, overlaid on GPS. Different brands & sources of maps vary, and how they appear on various GPS are better/easier to read than others, but usually there are either lines on the map showing boundaries of public lands, or Federal land shows different color from State land and another color for private land. State & Federal boundaries do not change very often...so even an older map is usually remarkably accurate.

My Garmin has its normal built-in basemap (fully useless other than to get you to the nearest public road), overlaid by U.S. Topo map (costs $100 or better for the software if I recall? to show me forest roads, federal/state/private land boundaries, etc), and overlaid again by official snowmobile trail maps (varying prices from many sources...so if I am deep off trail and ready to call it a day I can find the shortest path to the nearest official snowmobile trail or forest road by simply zooming out a bit). So if you're willing to buy the GPS, then nearly double its price again by buying the properly loaded software maps, modern technology can tell you within 15 feet EXACTLY where you are at at every moment, and whether you should be there or not, and whether you're approaching the boundaries of certain types of areas. And of course you need the education to recognize that snowmobiling is NOT legal on all public lands either...there are wilderness areas off-limits to all motorized vehicles....there are cross country ski trails off-limits to snowmobilers...there are date restrictions on some public lands...

It's all about education. Which is basically impossible. I find even many educated snowmobilers have no idea these maps and off-road GPS products exist. GPS makes it 100x easier for individuals to figure out where they are these days, but it also makes it easier for the stupids to go anywhere and still ignore the "lines" and never be truly lost. So GPS, being a tool that could easily solve this problem, has likely added to the problem by creating MORE lazy explorers crawling around out there, rather than the good ol' days when there were only a few hearty and well-educated souls willing to spend hours studying paper topo maps (with an undertanding of how to interpret them) the night before an off-trail excursion...and then stop and refer to them 40 times a day during the ride. I remember these days well as they were not that long ago...and I still carry those old paper maps and compass in my pocket a backup plan, in the event of a GPS failure.

Technology can make it easier, but it's gotta be in the right hands of good/honest/law abiding people. Education and laws (and signs) are great for those willing to be educated, and willing to follow the laws and signs. But those things fail for the rest of the public.

Trespassing has existed long before snowmobiles...so this problem will never be fully solved, regardless of any efforts.

Original poster is in Mass City...I'm very familiar with the area. There is VERY little public land right around Mass City. But there are a TON of welcoming/inviting open rolling meadows for rookie off-trailers to play without risk of hitting big trees. All of this area is private land, and in my mind very obviously private to even the casual observer. But I'm sure this problem in your area became MUCH worse, and much more heavily traveled about 5 or 8 years ago...whenever it was that official trail thru Roussau was opened up, which didn't exist before then. Before that trail came thru nobody even knew this area existed, but now everyone sees it. So regardless of how well signed that trail or property boundary is (I have never seen so many "stay on trail" signs in an area before) you still just can't fix the people willing to ignore them...

I have been snowmobiling for many decades. And I can totally understand and appreciate why so many locals have such a distaste for all, or just some, snowmobilers...and why many don't want a trail near or on their property.

(NOTE I've edited the daylights out of this particular post, because I want it to be accurate and comprehensive...sorry if it seems I keep changing it.)

 

[ranlam]

Maybe ask the local club to help with private property signs and labor. Heck I would ride out there sometime this summer and help ya if you need some.
Everyone knows tree farms are off limits, but ride through anyway?
The gps as stated above should be a tool for every off trail rider, or as stated also good topographic and compass skills.
These riders knew better but probably just said "pinn it"

 

[classicchick]

Maybe ask the local club to help with private property signs and labor. Heck I would ride out there sometime this summer and help ya if you need some.
Everyone knows tree farms are off limits, but ride through anyway?
The gps as stated above should be a tool for every off trail rider, or as stated also good topographic and compass skills.
These riders knew better but probably just said "pinn it"

Thanks so much for the suggestions, our land is not close to the trails so the clubs only assist those in the area of their trails. I hope they'll help out the people out toward Rousseau who
have a crop field planted. They are being ignored big time! ( The trail is on the field adjacent to theirs) We tried signs only, but finally had to go with binder twine with ribbons and "trees planted" signs ("private property" and "no snowmobiling" don't seem to work very well) The problem was we didn't do it on the field by our house! Thanks for all the great info offered to off trail riders by craze1cars. Also, thanks for the sympathetic posts. Can't change the facts but it was "chicken soup for the soul" Thanks, it was just what I needed to move on.....
Thanks ranlam for the offer of help. We usually get our fields set after deer season in Dec. because otherwise our materials will disintegrate from the sun. Thanks also to everyone who respected
our property....hope you enjoy watching our trees growing. A few are even peeking up above the snow but it might be a few years before you see the spruce because they grow so slow. Most others you see are White Pine.

 

[snocrazy]

This topic again? It sucks. I know. Nothing you can do about it.
If you catch them or get pictures of registrations, you can press trespassing charges. Even if there are no signs posted.
Word gets around that people are being charged with trespass I bet majority will think twice.

I dont understand why people snowmobile over there in west up off trail. Its all private land isnt it?
Go East to the Munising and South area. All public lands. No one to piss off. Ride the woods till your little weak trail riding arms cant take it any more.

 

[craze1cars]

I dont understand why people snowmobile over there in west up off trail. Its all private land isnt it?

LOL. No. A very large portion of the Western UP is the Ottawa National Forest. At almost 1,000,000 acres, it's larger than the Hiawatha Forest (which is the area you are referring to south of Munising). However it is much more chopped up and spread out than the Hiawatha is, with little pockets of private land scattered all over within it. So if you're going to leave the trail or the forest roads, you've gotta know exactly where you're at all the time.

But a rather vast area of Western UP is indeed public land, with plenty of legal off-trail riding opportunities.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Be careful with the Ottawa though as there are special rules about where and when you can ride because of eagle nesting or something. So before you ride read up on that.

Also anything on the plat map marked as CFA or CFR is off limits to snowmobile traffic except on designated trails. That is a large chunk of the land in the western UP and up into the Keweenaw...

 

[craze1cars]

Agreed. The Ottawa restrictions for Eagle nesting has been around for years. Off-trail use in certain areas after March 1 is prohibited, and this rule is clearly spelled out right on the forest maps, some snowmobile maps, and also here:
http://www.fs.usda.gov/activity/ottawa/recreation/wintersports/?recid=12303&actid=92

Again though, this is an example of where education of the few who read this will do little good for the masses. I'd venture that a very small percentage of snowmobilers are even aware of those types of restrictions. Those with GPS exclusively, who don't use paper maps, will never see such a restriction written or be aware of it at all.

It's definitely a good one to bring up for everyone, so thanks for the reminder.

As for the Commercial Forest land...agreed. It's private and off limits to snowmobiles.

 

[Jonger1150]

This topic again? It sucks. I know. Nothing you can do about it.
If you catch them or get pictures of registrations, you can press trespassing charges. Even if there are no signs posted.
Word gets around that people are being charged with trespass I bet majority will think twice.

I dont understand why people snowmobile over there in west up off trail. Its all private land isnt it?
Go East to the Munising and South area. All public lands. No one to piss off. Ride the woods till your little weak trail riding arms cant take it any more.

The Keweenaw is mostly private... Just stay out of the Keweenaw and plan your riding more carefully, there is probably 2 more weeks left of the season.

 

[gary_in_neenah]

I'll go along with the GPS response, most of us have one but that doesn't mean we use them all the time and quite frankly I've ridden with some that can't navigate with them regardless. Also mentioned above, education and enforcement are two areas of need but probably not realistic. Until people are required to take a class, education and experience will be shared by word of mouth as it always has.

I agree, this subject has been discussed too many times before but for obvious reasons it keeps coming back. I'll bet this topic has been discussed since the day the first snowmobile came off the assembly line back in the 60's. "Too loud, too fast, and riding where they shouldn't."

...and Jeez I didn't even think of the Nesting Eagles and the Tree Huggers that already hate us. We're doomed for sure!!

 

[U.P.906]

A strategically placed signs saying "Hope you smiled for the trail cam turn back now " would deter most people. You don't even need to actually have a camera set up. We had problems with people stealing firewood off our logging jobs and it works like a charm It saves $ on prison camp type barriers .

 

[whitedust]

I put a lot of work into off trail riding & for me I'm just not comfortable if think I'm on private land so stick to unplowed FRs which are all numbered & on my map. If you just don't care where you are then you will end up tresspassing sooner or later. To me if in doubt forget it you have no right to tear up someones private land & National Forests off FRs have many tracks of private land owned by lumber companies & others. Do some research enlighten yourself & you will think 2x before riding into that powder.

 

[snowfreak56]

I get a kick out of all the GPS statements,a GPS does not tell you if you are on private property.

 

[cuzzinolaf]

A strategically placed signs saying "Hope you smiled for the trail cam turn back now " would deter most people. You don't even need to actually have a camera set up. We had problems with people stealing firewood off our logging jobs and it works like a charm It saves $ on prison camp type barriers .

The problem with this is that IL and WI don't use registration numbers like they do in Michigan and Minnesota. It might stop people but if the people are guilty and don't care they'll just go right by it.