MTB'ers on the Trails= Legal

[Pizza Man]

Many years ago, we were coming down a snowmobile trail and there were a group of CC skiers taking a break to drink their wine and eat their cheese. Their skis and poles were laying all over the trail. We asked them to move their stuff so we could get through. After the 3rd try and them not moving, we drove over their stuff and continued on our ride.
Not proud of what we did, but they had their chance.

 

[raceinsnow]

If there were no snowmobile tracks or groomed trials these people would not be there. No bikers or cc skiers in 3-4' of snow with no trails or tracks.

 

[whitedust]

If there were no snowmobile tracks or groomed trials these people would not be there. No bikers or cc skiers in 3-4' of snow with no trails or tracks.

You got that right when I was an avid xcountry skier I was very thankful for a snowmobile track in the boonies.

 

[highhertel]

I have met a few pick em up trucks riding down the trails over the years, a little unnerving to say the least.

HH

 

[Hoosier]

If there were no snowmobile tracks or groomed trials these people would not be there. No bikers or cc skiers in 3-4' of snow with no trails or tracks.

That's exactly right - snowmobilers maintain these trails on and off season, groom them, mark them, buy trail permits to support all the costs of this, but hey, I bought a bike so I should have the same access they do! They better slow down so they don't hit me! They pollute too much, get them off these trails!

 

[raceinsnow]

I don't mind the people using the snowmobile trail for other types of recreation, but they have to realize these trails are like freeways and not gravel roads. Coming around a corner to see people two or three abreast is not fun. Then they look at us like we are doing something wrong. I just don't want to smear somebody all over the trail.

The problem is that many of these trails are gravel roads and not freeways. Snowmobilers make the assumption that they are expressways, while in reality they are not, therefore they need to be prepared to slow down when necessary. If the State of Michigan actually owns exclusive rights to these grades, and wants to allow them to be race courses and booze cruise routes for drunks, and that it the only way they can sell the sport and make a profit, that is their choice. I won't be on there and don't go on there now.



The trails I am talking about are on county roads and public and private property that can not legally exclude other users, at least not without reimbursing some of our tax dollars. These roads and trails are not expressways, never have been, and never will be. 45 mph is too fast on some of these trails, and that is exactly what the sheriff said a few years back when he had to deal with the aftermath of one of the all too frequent snowmobile fatalities.

All this said, common sense should prevail. But the biggest problem in the U.P. isn't people walking, riding, or biking on snow machine trails. It isn't people trespassing, or tearing up posted roadside. It's alcoholism. Has been for a long, long time. Many, many accidents, broken up families, health problems and almost all the crime up here related to excessive drinking and other drug abuse. How does this relate? They tried to ban drinking nationally which in theory would have almost certainly made the world a better place. But it didn't work because people didn't obey the law, it made criminals of honest people, and empowered organized crime. How many more laws do we need that people are not going to obey? Anybody drive over 55 on US-41? Anybody smoke pot? It seems to me that people pretty much do what they want as long as they think they can get away with it.

So for the sake of argument, suppose your law against pedestrians on county roads, public and private lands that happen to be used for snowmobile trails actually passed, and held up in court. So law enforcement is going to sit on the side of the trail and wait three weeks for someone to set foot on the trail so they can bust them? Eventually they will get bored, and have to start harassing reckless snowmobilers who may have been drinking. Which is the real problem in the first place. Be careful what you wish for. You can't change other people, they have to do that for themselves.

So we can assume from your posts that you and your people are tree hugging vegetarians that drive hybrid cars, hate motorsports and support prohibition.

 

[Black7]

So we can assume from your posts that you and your people are tree hugging vegetarians that drive hybrid cars, hate motorsports and support prohibition.

You forgot granola eatin'.

 

[kwikgren]

^^THIS!^^

I find these people skiing, snowshoeing, and biking on the snowmobile trails every season, in Marquette County. I wonder how long it would be till one of them had a hissy fit, if I rode on "their" trail networks?

I don't see these folks paying for a trail sticker! They have no business on the "Snowmobile" Trails, regardless if it's through State, or Federal land. Try that crap on the highway, and County Roads...they're on State and Federal land.

How about using that bucket of noodles the good Lord gave us. Just 'cause you 'can', doesn't mean you 'should'.

Again, I think you're missing my point. It's about common sense, courtesy, and property rights. It does work both ways. There is a property owner along the aforementioned NTN trail that has easement rights to ride part of the ski trail on his snowmachine to access his property and the ski website informs skiers of his rights so they are aware not to interfere. Never been a problem.

My biggest grief is with the MSA trying to flex their muscles, and try to pass this ridiculous law that is doomed to fail on a whole cadre of legal grounds. The worst case scenario is that some landowners would discontinue their support of portions of the snowmobile trail which is something that I do not want to see. I understand why a lobby organization might think that they can gain support by picking on people they perceive as minority users, but I feel that this is the wrong approach. Again, this does not apply to lands that are wholly owned by a private entity, snowmobile club, or government agency. If they can legally exclude user groups from lands or trails, that is their choice. And if you are going to operate at such excessive speeds as a racetrack, this should be the only place you ride and not in the general public. That's how it works with other motor vehicles. To think otherwise is mind boggling, and money and a powerful lobby group is the only way things ever got to this point.

I'd like to tell you that I can piss across Lake Superior and claim Canada as mine, but since the rules of this website clearly state "...there is no way to tell how far a man can piss from a website...", I won't make that claim. But I don't plan on moving to California anytime soon, so I would sure like to know what happened to some people up here. We never used to threaten to call the cops on people for petty little disagreements, people worked out their differences and got along. All I can say is that it would be a sad day indeed when skiing, dog sledding, and walking are no longer allowed in the U.P., since it is so much a part of our heritage up here. And yes, I do mean pretty much as a means of transportation to go anywhere one needs to go, without getting run down by people on motor vehicles that refuse to slow down. When I'm driving I slow down for pedestrians, dogs, atv's, snowmobiles, slower vehicles, bikes, motorcycles, etc. Pretty much on a daily basis. Yes, sometimes I'm in a hurry and pass first chance I get, but my first reaction is to slow down and be safe. I don't bother to pass judgement as to whether they should be there or not, nor do I call the cops and bother them unless there was a pretty serious crime being commited. Not worth my time, I got better things to do.

 

[Black7]

Can you ride your peddle bike on the Freeway? Nope! Can you ride a moped, or mini-bike on the Freeway? Nope! That's how I look at it.

I see non-snowmobilers on dedicated snowmobile trails every season. They're a menace. Do I slow down? Yes, because I recognize them for what they are, stupid people.

Do they realize the position that they can put riders in when they're walking, skiing, or peddling on dedicated snowmobile trails? Do they care?

Some of them get to the side of the trail and give me, and oncoming traffic, room to proceed. I've also seen the self-righteous bastards stay abreast and continue on their way, as if they have equal privilege to be there, on the snowmobile trail...it's a mixed bag.

I cannot remember any fatalities from riders hitting non-riders, so I guess the snowmobile riders are being prudent enough.

 

[Woodtic]

Kwikgren ,why couldn't your last post been your first post? You want to get a rise out of someone,Polk your wife in the wrong whole. Why must you create this chit storm on here??? Is this your winter hobby? A plus in book smart? Failure in street smarts? I would bet you have problems with more than just snowmobilers. It's anyone that doesn't have the same agenda as you?

 

[polarisrider1]

Kwikgren ,why couldn't your last post been your first post? You want to get a rise out of someone,Polk your wife in the wrong whole. Why must you create this chit storm on here??? Is this your winter hobby? A plus in book smart? Failure in street smarts? I would bet you have problems with more than just snowmobilers. It's anyone that doesn't have the same agenda as you?

Woodtic, did we just agree. We are making progress my friend.
I often wonder how many of the posters in here are avid snowmobilers and how many are sitting in a prison library on a tax payers computer looking for sites to stir crap up.

 

[Ricardo]

It's PEDAL, to peddle is to attempt to sell something, as in yankee peddler.

 

[HardwaterHoosier]

1) This is not how I thought this would go.
2) I think some thought by the thread title that i was giving up on this winter and was going to ride the trails by bike.
3) Not all trails used as snowmobile trails are multi-use trails and allow other means of use in the winter. I'd guessing 90% of groomed snowmobile trails are for snowmobile traffic only. I'd be interested in knowing the true milage.
4) Try to push them out by legislature and loose; You'll see in influx in other types of use followed by laws to protect them. i.e... speed limits, yielding to foot, bike, quad, and horse traffic.
which brings me back to my original question, Are clubs working with other trail use associations? Sounds like no, they're preparing to fight them.

 

[catalac]

Woodtic, did we just agree. We are making progress my friend.
I often wonder how many of the posters in here are avid snowmobilers and how many are sitting in a prison library on a tax payers computer looking for sites to stir crap up.

Man PR1, I didn't think anyone would ever find out where I really lived!

 

[Hoosier]

I often wonder how many of the posters in here are avid snowmobilers and how many are sitting in a prison library on a tax payers computer looking for sites to stir crap up.

I figured this guy was an official, card-carrying member of the fun police, but it makes more sense that he is stuck in prison. I'd be irritable too if I was serving time!

 

[Mattarsc]

Marquette has a bunch of trail that is groomed specifically for snow bikes. It's about 24" wide with twists and turns, hills, and even some banked corners. It is a lot more fun to ride than a snowmobile trail which is designed for vehicles that travel much faster. Personally, I would much rather ride the trails that were designed for snow bikes than a wide, flat snowmobile trail where I have to worry about getting run over.

There are also fat-bike specific trails near Wausau and Winchester (WinMan trails). There may be others as well.

The Houghton area has a few cross country ski trail systems where snow bikes are allowed. While wider, these trails tend to be twistier and hillier than a lot of the snowmobile trails in the area (more fun). Cross country skiers and snow bikers tend to move at about the same speed, so there should be less user conflict than a bike on a snowmobile trail.

PS - I enjoy riding my snowmobile, cross country skiing, and snow biking.

I agree as well. There is no part of riding a snowbike down a snowmobile trail that sounds fun. The ntn trails and Mqt south trails are designed and groomed and kept up for snow bike users to ride and those guys want nothing really to do with the snowmobile trail. And to call them hipsters driving prius's you'd be surprised. A lot more of them than you think are running newer trucks, have 800 mountain sleds tuned and clutched and are not afraid to grab throttle and rip. Ther is actually issues in Marquette currently of snowmobiles running down the mountain bike trails and the volunteers grooming the trails are gathering Xmas trees and signage trying to keep sleds off the mountain bike trails. Most of those trails you'd have to be nuts to run a sled down anyway. I don't know what ever happened last year up in the Keweenaw when sleds where going out of bounds up there but it caused a **** storm I thought that we are still paying for? I'm hoping that doesn't happen here in Marquette as it is hard enough trying to get through Marquette on a sled!!

 

[POLARISDAN]

LMAO! what did you just say?

hahahahahahahah..yea ***..we just got the prohibition preacher man..omfg..how in the world can u go from bikes on a sled trail to we should go back to prohibition?..thats right man..everybody is drunk on a sled and thats why these bikes will get run over?????? man..this is as bad as the thread on hcs..always the few preaching to the many..my f'in god

 

[fireworks]

I don't know what ever happened last year up in the Keweenaw when sleds where going out of bounds up there but it caused a **** storm I thought that we are still paying for?

sh*t storm?? Can you elaborate?

 

[Mattarsc]

I remember reading last year I believe there were sleds leaving the trail I don't remember where or the circumstances but there were posts encouraging us to stay on trail. In Marquette it's horrible. If a buddy of mine said lets ride from Negaunee to Marqutte and get a burger in Marquette it's pretty tough to do. And leaving Marquette heading along the lake near Lakewood lane is a little crazy. And the bike trails while I use them in the summer drive me nuts because they have taken over major trail veins for getting to and from. (the snow bike trails aren't so bad, but the heritage trail in the summer took over our main trail access going from Best Buy in Marquette to Negaunee.). And bike trails in Ishpeming are slowly bleeding over onto the ATV trails and snowmobile trails. I'm just hoping we will be able to work with them so we don't completely lose trails that we depend on.

 

[kwikgren]

I remember reading last year I believe there were sleds leaving the trail I don't remember where or the circumstances but there were posts encouraging us to stay on trail. In Marquette it's horrible. If a buddy of mine said lets ride from Negaunee to Marqutte and get a burger in Marquette it's pretty tough to do. And leaving Marquette heading along the lake near Lakewood lane is a little crazy. And the bike trails while I use them in the summer drive me nuts because they have taken over major trail veins for getting to and from. (the snow bike trails aren't so bad, but the heritage trail in the summer took over our main trail access going from Best Buy in Marquette to Negaunee.). And bike trails in Ishpeming are slowly bleeding over onto the ATV trails and snowmobile trails. I'm just hoping we will be able to work with them so we don't completely lose trails that we depend on.

Most designated ski trails and bike trails are on private property or public land designated non-motorized, and comprise a very small land area in Upper Michigan. Very few snowmobile trails are on private property or public land without legal easement to other forms of access. Many property owners allow snowmobile trails to cross their property, and generally respect the fact that these ARE designated snowmobile trails, but are not willing to give up any of their property rights or, in the case of Commercial Forest Reserve property, cannot legally deny non-motorized access for hunting and fishing. What this means is that a lot of areas used as snowmobile trails, both groomed and ungroomed, are technically "multi-use". This is the way it has been up here for as long as I can remember. With common sense and courtesy, it should hopefully be able to remain that way.

Photo courtesy Tim Kelley, Alaska. In Alaska all kinds of land users learn to co-exist with each other, and even the wildest of animals, with the use of common sense and the occasional need for protection. That's why I chose to live in Upper Michigan, because it's kind of like Alaska, except maybe a little too close to the big cities.