Death Spiral

[apex_shug]

Agree with tomx and mrsrunningbear.

I think grand scheme of things, permit stickers is small piece of the pie when it comes to expenses, especially for us out of state guy. I think people just like to complain sometimes and make mountains out of mole hills. So what is it, 35 for Wisconsin and 48 for Michigan? I happy to pay my $83 because its my escape every year and puts a smile on my face when I hit the northwoods every winter. But let me ask this, what is the happy medium prices? $20 bucks a permit? If so then the difference we are really talking about is a couple tanks of gas correct? Just a few years back we were paying over $4 dollars a gallon for premium gas. Did everyone stop sledding then?

Yes sleds are expensive but you can find great deals right now on new and used. Just picked up a new 2015 Zr 800 for 7,500. think msrp was 12k. Artic Cat was even offering 2.9% installment. CRAZY Cheap and almost free money!

Will agree that sledding for a young kids is dying. Just don't see it anymore. Got a 3 year old boy and just bought him used bravo for around the yard and small trips to southern Wisconsin when he gets older. hopefully he will enjoy it as much as I do.



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[pwolfy2003]

If you are going to bitch about $48 to be able to use something for 4 months that is just stupid.But yet these same families go to an amusement park and maybe get 6-8 rides if they are lucky and pay $60-$90 per person for a day . Every year this stupid topic comes up, if you dont like it dont ride , plain and simple.Just sick of the whining about this topic but it takes a lot of $$$$$$ and work to maintain these trails. On that same note its all we here around here in Wi. too is why do we have to buy a trail pass? Well its the only money a great deal of riders do for the trail system is contribute a few bucks and dont help with a dam thing else. Our club works year round with fund raisers and the such and also have to pay the fees. I tell you it would be a lot easier to just pay and not do any work, but I understand we would never be able to retain our trail system if too many people dont help.Its a lot of work but I do enjoy contributing year round for everyones enjoyment, and I also know theres a a lot of people that do alot more than me. Vent over !!!!!

 

[snoeatr]

Trail equipment costs have increased just like sleds. Or everything else in life. Have to cover increases. $50 to ride an entire state for a whole season is cheap! One day at a pro sports game or six flags or disney will cost you way more. Considering how much work is put in to trail systems I wont complain even if trail pass cost 100 . I have option to ride everyday all season if my schedule allowed

 

[snobinge]

I think your amusement park analogy makes a lot of sense! Heck I spend more at a night at the local carnival with the kiddos then the annual trail permit. I also agree with the argument of the % of total snowmobiling cost the trail permit represents. 40k Truck+7k Trailer+8-13k Sled+Fuel+Lodging+Dining/Cocktails+Maintenance+etc. The trail permit represents less than 1%

It is hard to think of any type of recreation where you do not have a usage fee. Do I like to pay for the trail permit for WI, MI, and WY...NO, however when you put it in perspective with any other recreational activity it starts to sound easier to swallow.

 

[Cirrus_Driver]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so get on the "high horse" and say costs don't matter, what about the year when we get no significant snow like the last two, and we're riding dirt - WHEN we get up there, and find big sections of trails not groomed - too warm or some other excuse. Let's just make it $250/year and cover the next 5 yrs of cost increases. Why stop at $50. As long as we're being ludicrous.

 

[mezz]

It's a matter of checks & balances, if you can't or don't want to, then don't. This is an expensive sport, period. It's not just the sled costs, equipment like helmets, boots, gloves etc not to mention, fuel, travel, food. I guess you need to really look at it hard by way of the enjoyment one gets from doing it. Grooming equipment & repairs along with fuel costs & not to mention attaining property access all costs $. Now, if your not getting to do it enough, time to get out of it. There are some that can only wish they could continue in this sport but can't for what ever reason, whether it be affordability or health reasons. Be grateful, not despicable.-Mezz

 

[Skylar]

Well, get rid of the 40k truck, and the ludicrous payment, buy something around 15k, and one will have plenty left for permits, trips, etc. My truck is 15 years old, rusty, 133k miles on it, but it tows the sleds north every year. I bought it 8 years ago with 90k on it for 8k. Also, no one says one has to buy a NEW sled! BUY sleds 4-5 years old, and save a boat load of money.

 

[byr 13]

yes sport is too much $$$ for the average family

 

[Ramsey]

If you are going to bitch about $48 to be able to use something for 4 months that is just stupid.But yet these same families go to an amusement park and maybe get 6-8 rides if they are lucky and pay $60-$90 per person for a day . Every year this stupid topic comes up, if you dont like it dont ride , plain and simple.Just sick of the whining about this topic but it takes a lot of $$$$$$ and work to maintain these trails. On that same note its all we here around here in Wi. too is why do we have to buy a trail pass? Well its the only money a great deal of riders do for the trail system is contribute a few bucks and dont help with a dam thing else. Our club works year round with fund raisers and the such and also have to pay the fees. I tell you it would be a lot easier to just pay and not do any work, but I understand we would never be able to retain our trail system if too many people dont help.Its a lot of work but I do enjoy contributing year round for everyones enjoyment, and I also know theres a a lot of people that do alot more than me. Vent over !!!!!

This very topic got my ol' buddy Pitch kicked off this board a few years back.
Being from southern Illinois and making one four day trip each year I would be more inclined to buy a MI permit for less money. Of our 4 day trip we would probably go to MI 2 days. I'm not using the pass for four months, two days max. IMHO I think more people would go to MI if a short term pass was available for less money. That would generate some revenue from those people vs no money from those people. That's my two cents.

 

[olsmann]

Here we go again. My stance still is to raise it to $100. The only thing that makes me hesitate to ride in the UP is the fact that there are way way to many people up there now.


Now can we talk about which oil is best?

 

[Mooseflyer]

$48 for an entire season of trail use is an incredible deal, imo. The same would hold true at double the price. That same $48 MIGHT buy a half-day lift ticket at the ski hill. I, too, would love to see a 3 or 7 day pass available. Increased revenue for the state (perhaps), and local businesses would benefit.

 

[scoot]

Its interesting when people use the cost of other activities as an argument for costs. But, record numbers of people are willing to pay top dollar to go to Wrigley Field or Six Flags. Indoor water parks have never been more popular. Our Son and DIL sold their snowmobile stuff and buy a yearly family pass to Disney World instead.

And snowmobile registrations continue to drop every year....

 

[shelby369]

Here we go again. My stance still is to raise it to $100. The only thing that makes me hesitate to ride in the UP is the fact that there are way way to many people up there now.


Now can we talk about which oil is best?

Really, Oil ??? cant we "hand signals"

 

[tpski]

Remember when?

I really doesn't seem that long ago when passes were only $10!

 

[snobinge]

$48 for an entire season of trail use is an incredible deal, imo. The same would hold true at double the price. That same $48 MIGHT buy a half-day lift ticket at the ski hill. I, too, would love to see a 3 or 7 day pass available. Increased revenue for the state (perhaps), and local businesses would benefit.

That is an interesting and somewhat relative comparison. An all day lift ticket in the Midwest is roughly $50. Out West $100. In many cases not only does the hill groom multiple times a day, but also has to rely on and incur the cost for man made snow.

18 holes is also in most cases more expensive than the $48 MI trail pass. That is only 5 hours of entertainment and you leave pissed off!

Skylar says...Well, get rid of the 40k truck, and the ludicrous payment, buy something around 15k, and one will have plenty left for permits, trips, etc. My truck is 15 years old, rusty, 133k miles on it, but it tows the sleds north every year. I bought it 8 years ago with 90k on it for 8k. Also, no one says one has to buy a NEW sled! BUY sleds 4-5 years old, and save a boat load of money.

Ok Skylar take out the 40k truck and 10k sled and replace equation with 15k truck and 4k sled. Trail pass is still less than 1% of overall snowmobiling spend. I think when you illustrate things as a percentage it puts things in a different perspective. Another thing to think about is I have never seen a thread with anyone complaining about the cost of WY, MT, ID, CO, etc. trail passes. Most of us who venture west do it for one trip a year and never complain about the cost of the permit. Quite honestly I am just happy that I get the permission slip signed by the wife...I don't care what it cost...I'm going!

I do think there is a place for a weekend or 1 week pass. I am not sure if I think that it would be added revenue or not. The leverage MI has is that the UP is the most consistent destination for snow. I purchased a WI trail pass last year and I never even put it on my sled as the local trails never opened. How many people pay the MI permit for one weekend because there is snow vs. how many don't pay and stay in their state of residence due to not being able to/want to absorb trail permit fee?

I think MI should offer a day pass, however I think it should be at least $10/day. Another perspective....the Gym I go to charges $20 for a 1 hour Crossfit Class for non-members. I'm done...for now.

 

[samc]

Also, no one says one has to buy a NEW sled! BUY sleds 4-5 years old, and save a boat load of money.

This is how our family stays in the sport. 4 sleds, trailer, trips, etc... all adds up but you have to be smart about it.

 

[uncle_ed]

Its all relative I guess to what you perceive about this sport. Its easy to feel like the price is cheap and go ahead and raise it and so on when we log off of our computer and throw a dart on the map as to where we want to land and then jump in our rig and trailer our sleds to the hotel and then ride and spread the wealth in that areas economy. I do most of my riding in an area that is not a winter tourist destination and dont see the big crowds of snow seekers but more of the locals getting out and making the best of winter the way it was back in the day. I see more old iron and some families still putting around having fun and I think rising trail permits impact that group more than those of us more fortunate.
I too think that a weekend pass would benefit our sport and maybe get a few more locals as well as out of staters here to snowmobile especially if fees are going to go up.

 

[durphee]

Cost is relative to your priorities. If you love the sport, you'll pay...if not, you won't. I don't find the cost of a trail permit to be overly priced but i do know that the cumulative cost of the sport for SOME to be not worth it. I am a middle income person and I do have to budget for sledding. But I also have 4 wheelers and the most expensive hobby...boating, which makes sledding seems relatively cheap! So i have to balance what I want to do. Maybe some day I will have to cut out a hobby, maybe sledding will be the first to go due to a small window to sled, low snow years, etc.... i hope I don't have to make that choice.

 

[mezz]

I really doesn't seem that long ago when passes were only $10!

But it really was that long ago. Time flies when your having fun. Take a moment & remember the equipment that was used back then & what is used today. Remember when there weren't as many groomers & operators. Remember what the trails were like then & what they are like today. Huge difference & worth every penny.-Mezz

 

[bearrassler]

Getting back to the original message, when you raise the price of something the sales generally go down. It doesn't matter if most of us will still buy a permit, some won't. In NW Ontario near me they have had to close many of the trails and groom the ones that are left a lot less often. It is mainly because they don't sell near as many permits because the price got to high. Last year I started a thread called trail permit thoughts to see if anyone had any out of the box ways to fund the grooming costs but there was not many new ideas