help me understand grooming equipment

[fatdaddy]

So its the middle of January and still some of the trails are not groomed because the swamps are not frozen. I see two types of groomers one is a track type (tucker, piston bully Pinroth) and the other is a farm tractor with tracks.
please explain to me why you would want one over the other, to me the track kind would be the way to go since its smaller, lighter and is designed for this type of work. I don,t understand the farm tractor use unless its for resale or something else. let me know your thougts.

 

[snobuilder]

Great thread starter....

Tractors without tracks are also used. I think they groom faster. But are severely limited in low sinkable areas which limits there territory in most trail systems.

 

[skidont]

pisten bully would be the ideal piece because it is very maneuverable and floatation is excellent but maintenance is costly , the tractor for the most part is very dependable over most other pieces but is a 4 corner machine which leaves a heavy foot print . the tractor is cheap compared to the others when buying but gets as expensive when adding the tracks , upwards of $60,000 for tracks I have heard . we use a BR180 to set the trails and when everything is froze switch to our tractor . I am sure I have forgot some other info but really depends on terrain your working with

 

[ezra]

the tractors are very tough and built for much harder work there fore they last also tractors can be used for trail maint in the fall .a tucker is a groomer only deff not as tough but much more maneuverable not as heavy

 

[gary_in_neenah]

The bridges in our trail system are too narrow for tractors with tracks and I suspect weight may be a problem also.

 

[Admin]

Ezra is right, the tuckers are not very tough. The Keweenaw used to use them a long time ago and spent more time taking care of them than using them. We moved to tractors (mostly New Holland) with tracks. A better solution, but still not the best. About 7 years ago we got our first piston bulley and have never looked back. The machines themselves are super tough. There are some weak points, but nothing is bullet proof. They have held up about 2-3x better than the New Hollands with tracks. A groomer in our system will see an average of 5-7k miles on it a season. We are now down to all piston bully with one John Deere. Have the JD because we have an arm mounted brush hog that can go on it and help with brushing.

One solution I wonder why some clubs with smaller amounts of trail to groom with little to no hills is this: www.americantracktruck.com on a strong diesel truck? Plus they are made in the good old Keweenaw!

-John

 

[snocrazy]

Tucker - weak diff. Not enough power to pull the new bigger heavier drags. (ask seney)
Bully - We have a Trail Bully. I dont like how it is like a rocking chair.... Down pressure on blade, back of machine goes down. Life up front of drag, blade goes up. It is a cool machine for sure. Maintenance is even pretty simple. We got our last year brand new. One mistake was ordering it with the wide metal cleated tracks which the road commission loves.
John Deere (tractor with tracks) This seems to be more stable. no front to back rocking. View of drag is much better. Can be used with brushing and grading attachments. (all seasons) Even have tires to put on in dirt season to save the tracks.

For the price and versatility, I think the tractor with tracks is the way to go.
Groomers workshop out in the Soo in March is a good place to see all the options and try them out.

 

[G]

Here we have 1 Piston Bully and 2 Quadtrack farm tractors. Started with Tucker and had the same problems described above. Also had a Bombadier track mobile similar to the Piston Bully. Got rid of that because it had constant heating issues. Plus it broke down a lot like the Tucker. The biggest reason they use farm tractors around here is that this is a farming community and it is some farmers that groom so they can use their tractors during the winter. Also we have no bridges so they don't have to worry about that. The only bad thing is that it never froze up the ground very good this fall and then our first snow was a major dump. There are still many areas not yet frozen. You can't take anything through some of these swamps let alone a 50 thousand lb tractor. So we have gaps in our system this year. I don't know that there is such a thing as the 'perfect set up'. It depends on many things. The smaller tracked vehicles work well but they are built light and don't hold up. The heavy tractors work well under most but not all circumstances. It is not an exact science.

 

[jakerides]

Big difference on resale value, you take a big hit on Tucker's and Piston Bullies on trade in. Farmer love buying used tractors that never ran in dirt and dust. New Hollands can end up costing $40,000 to $60,000 less for six years of use. With the funding clubs receive some have no choice. Probaly the best is to have one of each. Even our club that has two New Hollands has some swamps we haven't done yet.
Lot's of maintenance issues with tracked tractors also and they are about 6,000 lbs heavier then Piston Bully's. Pounds per square inch on the ground on a Piston Bully are 50% less. But As another Forest County Club found out last year a Piston Bully can also get stuck in a swamp. Extraction cost can be very costly in dollars and time lost for grooming. No easy answers for clubs.

 

[Tracker]

I have forever wondered why...tucker and piston bully and the smaller groomers...the company...why in the H E double tooth picks don't they just make em a tad stronger and mimic a tractors specs and tolerances and use their motors and make a small machine with tracks that lasts....they would sell like hot cakes...all they gotta do is make a 7/8 shaft 1 inch and so on....they cost the bucks so why not....or the tractor company...downsize one ya ID10Ts and charge as much as a tucker or piston....I swear...CEOs today are out of touch with reality and stuck in their old ways....youngins probably saying this to them and so old as dust ID10T is....nope...we always made em this way....but boss....theres 20,000 customers that want a version like this....same with the ID10Ts at the snowmobile companies and the 340 and 400 kids sled dilemma.....the dumbest old guys you ever seen and set in their ways while customers scratch their heads and wait...send this to em if ya know em....I have....no light bulb on yet...not even a quarter watt dash bulb.....nuthin

 

[frnash]

… One solution I wonder why some clubs with smaller amounts of trail to groom with little to no hills is this: www.americantracktruck.com on a strong diesel truck? Plus they are made in the good old Keweenaw! …

Apparently they've been in business since 2010.
John, do you know exactly where they're located? Have you ever seen one of those other than at the manufacturer's (i.e. in use) anywhere in da UP?
Has anyone else seen 'em?

 

[thebreeze]

Ive seen a number of them around out west.

 

[Admin]

They are located in Chassell. They actually sell a ton of them internationally. I have not seen them in use up here, but I have been invited to go for a ride someday and hope to!

-John

 

[frnash]

I thought this looked promising, from February 22, 2011:
(click →) "Michigan Tech Researcher Grooms Snow Roads in Antarctica", and also the (click →) "Keweenaw Snow Paver".

Six years later I wonder what ever came of either/both of those, lots o' research, no viable product?

 

[frnash]

…They are located in Chassell.

Ooops, sorry, I knew that much, but in spite of being quite familiar with Chassell, an address like:
P.O. Box 260
Chassell, MI 49916
… as with much of da Copper Country, ain't too helpful for actually finding the place[SUP]1[/SUP]!
I thought maybe it was two guys building 'em in their garage.

Two minutes later:
Eureka, I found it! at MiCompanyDB: (click →) American Track Truck, Inc.

Quote:

American Track Truck, Inc. is a Domestic Profit Corporation registered with company number 02615J, under act number: 284-1972 .
This company was started on Thursday 10th September 2009 so this company age is seven years, four months and nine days. The current status of American Track Truck, Inc. is Active.
The business office is registered in 39434 Us 41 Chassell Mi 49916, United States. American Track Truck, Inc. mailing address is P.O. Box 260 Chassell Mi 49916. The geo coordinates are 47° 1' 5.3" N 88° 31' 17.2" W.

---

([SUP]1[/SUP] I yoosta get mail at the Chassell PO too while I was up dere.)

 

[jakerides]

I have forever wondered why...tucker and piston bully and the smaller groomers...the company...why in the H E double tooth picks don't they just make em a tad stronger and mimic a tractors specs and tolerances and use their motors and make a small machine with tracks that lasts....they would sell like hot cakes...all they gotta do is make a 7/8 shaft 1 inch and so on....they cost the bucks so why not....or the tractor company...downsize one ya ID10Ts and charge as much as a tucker or piston....I swear...CEOs today are out of touch with reality and stuck in their old ways....youngins probably saying this to them and so old as dust ID10T is....nope...we always made em this way....but boss....theres 20,000 customers that want a version like this....same with the ID10Ts at the snowmobile companies and the 340 and 400 kids sled dilemma.....the dumbest old guys you ever seen and set in their ways while customers scratch their heads and wait...send this to em if ya know em....I have....no light bulb on yet...not even a quarter watt dash bulb.....nuthin

Keep in mind the vast majority of tractors are made for farming not grooming. Tracks are a dealer installed option not a factory option. Tucker's and Piston Bully's are purpose build for snow but again more so for grooming down hill ski slopes. Pretty much everything us groomers use is not designed for trail grooming. Not many swamps in the mountains out west. However the escape hatch can come in handy in swamps tho they are designed for escape in a Avalanche.

 

[ezra]

his point is why not expand your market as a tractor builder and run a line of medium duty grooming tractors? they are passing up a income stream and could be a pretty profitable one at that

 

[elf]

When I used to live down in Amery, WI and was a member of the club there in Polk County they ran all tractors plus one tracked vehicle. The tractors were all leased and exchanged I believe every two yrs. Maintenance and operating costs for regular tractors is so much lower than other vehicles. More fuel efficient, pulling a drag is nothing for them, they can groom at higher speeds. Had a couple trails that were hilly and tight and thats what the tracked vehicle was used for. Now that was over 11 yrs ago so I have no idea what they are doing now.

 

[xcr440]

When I used to live down in Amery, WI and was a member of the club there in Polk County they ran all tractors plus one tracked vehicle. The tractors were all leased and exchanged I believe every two yrs. Maintenance and operating costs for regular tractors is so much lower than other vehicles. More fuel efficient, pulling a drag is nothing for them, they can groom at higher speeds. Had a couple trails that were hilly and tight and thats what the tracked vehicle was used for. Now that was over 11 yrs ago so I have no idea what they are doing now.

Saw one of their tractors last weekend, so they must still be running them!

 

[tsg]

Jakerides is spot on, that almost all equipment, with the exception of drags, are not made for snow purposes. He also knows a lot about equipment / grooming, as he is very involved in a club in NE Wisconsin who does an EXCELLENT job grooming their trails. Ride them all the time, and thanks jakerides.

Regarding the notion that companies make specific equipment, i am sure that is discussed and explored, and if there are as many opportunities as you think, some one would be doing it. Niche specific equipment takes time to develop, test, and bring to market, and the rewards better out weigh the costs, especially in this day and age. I personally do not see a vast or expansive market for "trail grooming specific" equipment. Too weather and economic dependent. Club funds and matching state funds are hard to come by and always changing. And, clubs in areas that suffer to see consistent snow, keep equipment for years and years. And finally, from what i have been told, the resale value and perspective buyer market for specific equipment, like tuckers and Piston Bulleys, is difficult when it comes to selling or trading. So......I am sure this has been examined by numerous companies, just not enough demand to bring to market.

As for the snowmobile size comment, could not agree more as I have older kids and younger kids, and i regret seller the smaller sleds we had. However the reason smaller sleds are not being made, is based on demand, and lack of. Plan and simple, regardless of what we all feel or think.