2023 Yamaha Snowmobiles?

[bayfly]

True...but neither Polaris or Doo stood still..they brought new models to give their loyal customer's something to be excited about...the unfortunate thing is we are completely sold out (can't get anymore for next year), and it's not even the end of march, and we are done..if we could have gotten twice as many sleds...we would have sold them ALL...no lie....the market is that hot...I get why cat and yamaha are being cautious (with the supply chain issues still on going)...but on the other hand...you only have a HOT market like this for so long...it's gonna fizzle out eventually....hopefully for cat and yamaha fans they don't wait too long...but already Doo has had three new chassis (XS, Gen 4, and now Gen 5)...in the same time that cat has run the same old same old..they could easily increase market share by adding the yamaha NA 988 motor to a new chassis, and go toe to toe with ski-doos 900 ACE....and the 800 two stroke...while it might be somewhat competitive with the 850s...it's a perception issue...a new 850-900, would create some excitement..(thus sales).I could go on and on......and in the off road utv/atv market...Cat and Yamaha are WAY behind....ZERO cab models, no heat, no AC, to stock turbo model....very limited accessories (compared to polaris, and can am, in fact not even close to what they offer)..I mean their effort there is also embarassing.

in full disclosure, I am a Cat rider and very satisfied with the sleds I own. I currently have 4 sleds ranging from 2015 to 2021, and the chassis on each one is a bit different. They all ride great by me, so I am not at all excited by the prospect of a new chassis that makes all of my existing sleds look outdated. I don't expect non-Cat riders (or dealers) to agree with this perspective. Everyone should ride the type/brand they like. I do have some general questions based on my lack of knowledge of other brands. (1) does releasing new chassis frequently increase/decrease production costs? (2) does frequently releasing new chassis indicate the old chassis were found to be inferior? (3) does releasing a new chassis in 2023 limit production capacity and thereby create the "sold out" situation? (4) are Doo and Poo expected to increase production substantially in 2023 to take advantage of this hot market? Clearly Cat has taken a different approach to the market and I am trying to better understand the implications. My take is that AC does not intend to sell to the masses and is happier with a smaller, more distinct, and perhaps more profitable segment. Thoughts?

 

[old abe]

I hear ya but is the unit build smaller each year ? Best 4s are with doo right now with poo dabbling. Cat has the tcat that’s it for 4s the rest 2s. Yamaha has SW variations and the Viper. Just eps added last year. Eps is a big deal but the rest of the sled is old old.

So you're saying the 4-stroke 7000 AC/Yami 3 Cyl is no more? If so, that is not a good sign for future things to come imo.

 

[whitedust]

So you're saying the 4-stroke 7000 AC/Yami 3 Cyl is no more? If so, that is not a good sign for future things to come imo.

No was discontinued years ago basically cat went 2s except for Tcat ,Yamaha offers SW and Viper. Figured it was a market decision for non compete issues. Actually was a good decision if Textron had kept their production unit commitments to Yamaha which they did not.

 

[old abe]

in full disclosure, I am a Cat rider and very satisfied with the sleds I own. I currently have 4 sleds ranging from 2015 to 2021, and the chassis on each one is a bit different. They all ride great by me, so I am not at all excited by the prospect of a new chassis that makes all of my existing sleds look outdated. I don't expect non-Cat riders (or dealers) to agree with this perspective. Everyone should ride the type/brand they like. I do have some general questions based on my lack of knowledge of other brands. (1) does releasing new chassis frequently increase/decrease production costs? (2) does frequently releasing new chassis indicate the old chassis were found to be inferior? (3) does releasing a new chassis in 2023 limit production capacity and thereby create the "sold out" situation? (4) are Doo and Poo expected to increase production substantially in 2023 to take advantage of this hot market? Clearly Cat has taken a different approach to the market and I am trying to better understand the implications. My take is that AC does not intend to sell to the masses and is happier with a smaller, more distinct, and perhaps more profitable segment. Thoughts?

New chassis, equates to improving from what's been in the past, to the better. Seems as the "smaller" segment, keeps getting "smaller" by the year? That can only go so long, and then~ Yeah, well lets hope not.

 

[old abe]

No was discontinued years ago basically cat went 2s except for Tcat ,Yamaha offers SW and Viper. Figured it was a market decision for non compete issues. Actually was a good decision if Textron had kept their production unit commitments to Yamaha which they did not.

The decision to dump the 7000 Yama/Cat by AC is not a good sign. And it doesn't say much to the good for the Yama/Cats, period. My good friend traded for a pair of new 7000's a couple years ago, perhaps they were just leftovers?

 

[bayfly]

The decision to dump the 7000 Yama/Cat by AC is not a good sign. And it doesn't say much to the good for the Yama/Cats, period. My good friend traded for a pair of new 7000's a couple years ago, perhaps they were just leftovers?

I got the impression that not offering the 7000 this year might have been a last-minute decision. Apparently, there were some Cat promo pictures circulated earlier that included the 7000 in the line-up. I am not sure what happened to cause them to drop it. I do have a 2015 XF7000, and it's a nice sled. Sorry to see the 7000 go, if that is the final result.

 

[old abe]

I got the impression that not offering the 7000 this year might have been a last-minute decision. Apparently, there were some Cat promo pictures circulated earlier that included the 7000 in the line-up. I am not sure what happened to cause them to drop it. I do have a 2015 XF7000, and it's a nice sled. Sorry to see the 7000 go, if that is the final result.

Yeah, well, GOOD news! According to SnowTech, the ZR 7000, and Pantera 7000, 1049 Yama/Cats are back! Imo, that's very good to hear, eh!

 

[mezz]

in full disclosure, I am a Cat rider and very satisfied with the sleds I own. I currently have 4 sleds ranging from 2015 to 2021, and the chassis on each one is a bit different. They all ride great by me, so I am not at all excited by the prospect of a new chassis that makes all of my existing sleds look outdated. I don't expect non-Cat riders (or dealers) to agree with this perspective. Everyone should ride the type/brand they like. I do have some general questions based on my lack of knowledge of other brands. (1) does releasing new chassis frequently increase/decrease production costs? (2) does frequently releasing new chassis indicate the old chassis were found to be inferior? (3) does releasing a new chassis in 2023 limit production capacity and thereby create the "sold out" situation? (4) are Doo and Poo expected to increase production substantially in 2023 to take advantage of this hot market? Clearly Cat has taken a different approach to the market and I am trying to better understand the implications. My take is that AC does not intend to sell to the masses and is happier with a smaller, more distinct, and perhaps more profitable segment. Thoughts?

IMO, if it's not broke, dont fix it. Cat has always come out with reasonable changes when needed. Besides, why try to keep up with the Jones's?

 

[whitedust]

IMO, if it's not broke, dont fix it. Cat has always come out with reasonable changes when needed. Besides, why try to keep up with the Jones's?

Easy because you lose market share to better and best products. No company wants to be perceived as behind in technology. Now days screens and smart shocks are leading edge and riders like and are willing to pay for that tech in the new market. Fancy screens not that important to me but smart shocks are. I need basic engine information at a glance digital is nice but don’t need 45 different screens and gps. A map will do. I have photos of digital trail maps as well as paper.

 

[Hoosier]

True...but neither Polaris or Doo stood still..they brought new models to give their loyal customer's something to be excited about...the unfortunate thing is we are completely sold out (can't get anymore for next year), and it's not even the end of march, and we are done..if we could have gotten twice as many sleds...we would have sold them ALL...no lie....the market is that hot...I get why cat and yamaha are being cautious (with the supply chain issues still on going)...but on the other hand...you only have a HOT market like this for so long...it's gonna fizzle out eventually....hopefully for cat and yamaha fans they don't wait too long...but already Doo has had three new chassis (XS, Gen 4, and now Gen 5)...in the same time that cat has run the same old same old..they could easily increase market share by adding the yamaha NA 988 motor to a new chassis, and go toe to toe with ski-doos 900 ACE....and the 800 two stroke...while it might be somewhat competitive with the 850s...it's a perception issue...a new 850-900, would create some excitement..(thus sales).I could go on and on......and in the off road utv/atv market...Cat and Yamaha are WAY behind....ZERO cab models, no heat, no AC, to stock turbo model....very limited accessories (compared to polaris, and can am, in fact not even close to what they offer)..I mean their effort there is also embarassing.

I'm just saying for this year only - model year 2023 - there's no bottom line benefit to putting out something new, as they are going to sell all they can make regardless. But assuming supply chain issues are gone for 2024 - they'll be dead in the water putting out the same exact outdated sleds again. Snowtech and snowest both said the new product is coming but who knows if or when they'll actually invest in producing it. It may be too late by then.

I'm hoping someone like Argo buys Cat.

 

[whitedust]

I'm just saying for this year only - model year 2023 - there's no bottom line benefit to putting out something new, as they are going to sell all they can make regardless. But assuming supply chain issues are gone for 2024 - they'll be dead in the water putting out the same exact outdated sleds again. Snowtech and snowest both said the new product is coming but who knows if or when they'll actually invest in producing it. It may be too late by then.

I'm hoping someone like Argo buys Cat.

No one seems interested in Cat or Textron would have sold. Idk if Yamaha relationship comes with Cat?

 

[bayfly]

I'm just saying for this year only - model year 2023 - there's no bottom line benefit to putting out something new, as they are going to sell all they can make regardless. But assuming supply chain issues are gone for 2024 - they'll be dead in the water putting out the same exact outdated sleds again. Snowtech and snowest both said the new product is coming but who knows if or when they'll actually invest in producing it. It may be too late by then.

I'm hoping someone like Argo buys Cat.

I wonder who will be hit the hardest by a tanking economy, if that’s where we are headed. The companies who have increased their production costs by constantly changing or adding, or those that have stayed a bit behind in some respects. It seems that all the new improvements have driven the price of sleds to an unsustainable level. Yet Cat and Yammy have moved up their pricing as well to match the market. To me that seems like it would create some profit margin. On the downside, everyone loses but maybe some not as much. We’ll never know how this all pans out, but speculating is fun anyway.

 

[snobuilder]

What about the innovation with Cats Alpha design?

Also the 400cc Blast is pretty cool.

Not to mention class leading HP for the past 7 years. ( I mean 90HP is plenty for the huge segment of doo guys/girls....LOL.//no offence intended)
Cat fills a few niches

 

[Hoosier]

I wonder who will be hit the hardest by a tanking economy, if that’s where we are headed.

Probably not Aaron Rogers.

 

[Hoosier]

No one seems interested in Cat or Textron would have sold. Idk if Yamaha relationship comes with Cat?

No one knows if Textron wants to sell or who has offered or been approached.

 

[snobuilder]

Taking a lead from the low cost Blast, I think a low frills 130 HP Viper/7000 with EPS @ under $12K would sell fast....and if In a new chassis that would be icing on the cake. But unlike Doo still searching for a great handling front end, Cat already nailed it.

 

[xsledder]

True...but neither Polaris or Doo stood still..they brought new models to give their loyal customer's something to be excited about...the unfortunate thing is we are completely sold out (can't get anymore for next year), and it's not even the end of march, and we are done..if we could have gotten twice as many sleds...we would have sold them ALL...no lie....the market is that hot...I get why cat and yamaha are being cautious (with the supply chain issues still on going)...but on the other hand...you only have a HOT market like this for so long...it's gonna fizzle out eventually....hopefully for cat and yamaha fans they don't wait too long...but already Doo has had three new chassis (XS, Gen 4, and now Gen 5)...in the same time that cat has run the same old same old..they could easily increase market share by adding the yamaha NA 988 motor to a new chassis, and go toe to toe with ski-doos 900 ACE....and the 800 two stroke...while it might be somewhat competitive with the 850s...it's a perception issue...a new 850-900, would create some excitement..(thus sales).I could go on and on......and in the off road utv/atv market...Cat and Yamaha are WAY behind....ZERO cab models, no heat, no AC, to stock turbo model....very limited accessories (compared to polaris, and can am, in fact not even close to what they offer)..I mean their effort there is also embarassing.

The 2023 Cat chassis is not the same old 2012 chassis by any stretch of the imagination. Just because the seat looks the same, the gauge looks the same, and the hoods have the same overall shape, they are not the same sled. If anyone was paying attention the chassis was adjusted in 2018/2019 which in all realty it should have been called Pro Cross Gen 2. It was not just a plastic change but a lot of small revisions to an already great chassis. Around the same time they dropped the Pro Mountain chassis for the Ascender platform.

Then they came out with a totally different and radical rear suspension for their mountain sleds. Plus in 2021 a new front end came out for their trail sleds. So, in realty the sled is not behind Polaris or Ski-doo in terms of chassis. Yes, Cat is missing a fancy display and a more diverse selection of engines. That is what is causing Cat to have a perception problem and market share.

One has to note, even though Cat is losing market share, people are still winning races and breaking records on them. It says a lot about the old, old chassis. Or, in realty is it not that same chassis from 2012 after all?

 

[old abe]

IMO, if it's not broke, dont fix it. Cat has always come out with reasonable changes when needed. Besides, why try to keep up with the Jones's?

Perhaps to sell more sleds?

 

[old abe]

No one seems interested in Cat or Textron would have sold. Idk if Yamaha relationship comes with Cat?

With no better AC sled sales volume numbers, including Yam, seems to make it very hard to attract a interested party/buyer/buyers! And no one but Yamaha all by themselves, by thier choice, put Yamaha in place that they are now. With a insecure future.

 

[old abe]

Taking a lead from the low cost Blast, I think a low frills 130 HP Viper/7000 with EPS @ under $12K would sell fast....and if In a new chassis that would be icing on the cake. But unlike Doo still searching for a great handling front end, Cat already nailed it.

Hmmm? Perhaps, why then don't AC "sales" numbers, volumes show that, eh? I do agree totally with you on a below 12K 7000/Viper!