2023 Yamaha Snowmobiles?

[SledTL]

I would generally be curious to know what the design engineers work on at either company. Being an engineer myself, I would think about doing small tweaks like a gauge, headlights, grips, etc. Or work on the known pitfalls that exist if you are not going to make a new chassis. Strengthen the cross shaft, put a manual reverse lever back on, fix the driveshaft problems. Day to day tasks that don't require a project team and millions to re-tool your line.

 

[snobuilder]

I agree seemed like a no brainer. I guess Yamaha wants to sell SW not Vipers. Vector was same way black sheep to get improvements that seemed logical.

Only took a year for Vector,....little brother.... to get EPS, which is standard practice it seems. That was 11model years ago....Meanwhile ski doo needed what?,... 4 "chassis upgrades"....LOL....Like OOOOPs, I mean,....OOOOPS I mean,....OOOPS I mean....OOOPS I mean....LOL....BAAAAAA!
Maybe Poo and Doo should give EPS a try....best 12#'s a trail sled can have short of 2 gallons of fuel.

 

[hemi_newman]

I would generally be curious to know what the design engineers work on at either company. Being an engineer myself, I would think about doing small tweaks like a gauge, headlights, grips, etc. Or work on the known pitfalls that exist if you are not going to make a new chassis. Strengthen the cross shaft, put a manual reverse lever back on, fix the driveshaft problems. Day to day tasks that don't require a project team and millions to re-tool your line.

So your the one that designed the Jeep Grand Cherokee and requiring me to take the front bumper off to change a damn headlight bulb. Just kidding! But I would love to strangle the engineer with my cut up hands who ever came up with that design.

 

[bayfly]

That's just a sad offering by Cat /Yamaha....nothing new...nothing exciting...feel bad for their dealers/customer's....this is not good for our sport in general.....I love the cat apologists who say "this chassis works", and "they redesigned it in 2018", "Totally different"...apparently taller spindles, and suspension tweaks equals new chassis/new sled.....REALLY CAT GUYS?? REALLY? You don't want something new and exciting?

Actually I like the Cats that I own. I also bought a new one last year. It has what’s called a monorail. It is very exciting to ride. Funny that some of the other brand’s don’t even have that option, but that doesn’t bother me one bit. Maybe if I had some skin in the game, say I worked at a Cat dealer, I would be all over the deficiencies of other brands. But I don’t, so I just appreciate that I can purchase the brand I like without trying to convince other brand owners that they are fools.

 

[G]

Nobody on this site knows what AC or Textron is thinking or what they may or may not have coming. Nobody on this site knows anyone be it a dealer or an 'insider' that has the foggiest idea of what is coming or not coming. Textron is a huge diversified company trying to deal with all the changes Covid set up. I am quite sure they know more about just in time inventories and supply chain shortfalls and all other issues involving manufacturing complicated machinery than anybody on this site. They have been up close and personal with it for two years. Textron is a huge company that makes a lot of money. They bought AC before the havoc Covid created. Who knows what their plans were/are? At any rate they have much more pressing issues in today's world than making new models of snowmobiles every other year. Their best people are working in their other companies that actually make money for the company. Arctic Cat is at the bottom of their priority list. They don't care. At this point they would probably sell Arctic if anyone came with a serious offer. But who is going to do that in today's climate? Yamaha makes their money on other products too. They don't care about being the best selling snowmobile. The money to be made does not justify the investment. They are content to just sell somebody motors. And for the Pol guys Pol doesn't care about sleds either. They make their money on side by sides. If a certain chip or other component is in short supply you can bet the side by side is going to get it before a sled gets it. Snowmobiles are at the very bottom of the food chain for everybody except Doo. And that is why the industry sales numbers are what they are. And it isn't going to change no matter how many Arctic Cats or Yamahas the faithful have bought.

 

[old abe]

I think if the procross chassis had a new rear skid/suspension put underneath it, a gauge package comparable to the Poo (or now this year Doo), and a refreshed set of bodywork, then Cat/Yamaha would be sitting just fine.

The procross chassis really is a solid setup, and is generally attractive (but that is subjective).

A new gen can always turn out poorly. Just look at when Cat replaced the Firecat with the Barney F-Series. Dear lord that was a painful "evolution".

How many different skid changes, updates hasn't AC had since the Pro Cross chassis came to be, eh?

 

[old abe]

Nobody on this site knows what AC or Textron is thinking or what they may or may not have coming. Nobody on this site knows anyone be it a dealer or an 'insider' that has the foggiest idea of what is coming or not coming. Textron is a huge diversified company trying to deal with all the changes Covid set up. I am quite sure they know more about just in time inventories and supply chain shortfalls and all other issues involving manufacturing complicated machinery than anybody on this site. They have been up close and personal with it for two years. Textron is a huge company that makes a lot of money. They bought AC before the havoc Covid created. Who knows what their plans were/are? At any rate they have much more pressing issues in today's world than making new models of snowmobiles every other year. Their best people are working in their other companies that actually make money for the company. Arctic Cat is at the bottom of their priority list. They don't care. At this point they would probably sell Arctic if anyone came with a serious offer. But who is going to do that in today's climate? Yamaha makes their money on other products too. They don't care about being the best selling snowmobile. The money to be made does not justify the investment. They are content to just sell somebody motors. And for the Pol guys Pol doesn't care about sleds either. They make their money on side by sides. If a certain chip or other component is in short supply you can bet the side by side is going to get it before a sled gets it. Snowmobiles are at the very bottom of the food chain for everybody except Doo. And that is why the industry sales numbers are what they are. And it isn't going to change no matter how many Arctic Cats or Yamahas the faithful have bought.

You are spot on, AC, Yam, at the bottom, and "don't snowmobile care". They haven't for quite some time!

 

[SledTL]

So your the one that designed the Jeep Grand Cherokee and requiring me to take the front bumper off to change a damn headlight bulb. Just kidding! But I would love to strangle the engineer with my cut up hands who ever came up with that design.

Nah I'm a mfg guy can't blame me for that!

 

[acase27]

Nobody on this site knows what AC or Textron is thinking or what they may or may not have coming. Nobody on this site knows anyone be it a dealer or an 'insider' that has the foggiest idea of what is coming or not coming. Textron is a huge diversified company trying to deal with all the changes Covid set up. I am quite sure they know more about just in time inventories and supply chain shortfalls and all other issues involving manufacturing complicated machinery than anybody on this site. They have been up close and personal with it for two years. Textron is a huge company that makes a lot of money. They bought AC before the havoc Covid created. Who knows what their plans were/are? At any rate they have much more pressing issues in today's world than making new models of snowmobiles every other year. Their best people are working in their other companies that actually make money for the company. Arctic Cat is at the bottom of their priority list. They don't care. At this point they would probably sell Arctic if anyone came with a serious offer. But who is going to do that in today's climate? Yamaha makes their money on other products too. They don't care about being the best selling snowmobile. The money to be made does not justify the investment. They are content to just sell somebody motors. And for the Pol guys Pol doesn't care about sleds either. They make their money on side by sides. If a certain chip or other component is in short supply you can bet the side by side is going to get it before a sled gets it. Snowmobiles are at the very bottom of the food chain for everybody except Doo. And that is why the industry sales numbers are what they are. And it isn't going to change no matter how many Arctic Cats or Yamahas the faithful have bought.

I agree with pretty much everything here.

One thing to note - BRP breaks out their sales by category and "seasonal" is one - it contains Ski-Doo, Lynx, and Sea-Doo. Last year those three only accounted for 31% of their global sales. Can-Am accounted for 47%. So not even for BPR are the snowmobiles the bread and butter.

Unfortunately Polaris lumps their Snowmobile financials in with ORV so we don't have any visibility into how big the snowmobile numbers are.

Interestingly, I assumed Textron was quite a bit larger than Polaris & BRP, and they are but not as much as I would have thought. Textron is a $12 billion company while Polaris is $8 billion and BRP is $7 billion.

 

[whitedust]

I agree with pretty much everything here.

One thing to note - BRP breaks out their sales by category and "seasonal" is one - it contains Ski-Doo, Lynx, and Sea-Doo. Last year those three only accounted for 31% of their global sales. Can-Am accounted for 47%. So not even for BPR are the snowmobiles the bread and butter.

Unfortunately Polaris lumps their Snowmobile financials in with ORV so we don't have any visibility into how big the snowmobile numbers are.

Interestingly, I assumed Textron was quite a bit larger than Polaris & BRP, and they are but not as much as I would have thought. Textron is a $12 billion company while Polaris is $8 billion and BRP is $7 billion.

Imo good luck trying to figure out snowmobile market share via hard numbers. The mags go at it every now and then and who knows where they get their numbers. The market shares I have seen broken out:
1. Skidoo
2.Polaris
3. Arctic Cat
4. Yamaha
Broken out by dollars and unit numbers world wide is unknown. Also is Lynx included with Skidoo or separate? If together their market segment is huge combined compared to the others.

 

[Hoosier]

How does that happen are available units that limited? How do Yamaha dealers make a living seems more like an internet sale all the dealer does is dispatch the unit after prep? Definitely won’t be an over stock of Yamaha snowmobilers in the foreseeable future.

No idea. The only thing not sold out now are the mountain sleds that have cat engines. So it seems the yamaha engines are what is in short supply.
It seems I'm getting daily emails from polaris reminding me of snowcheck, so I assume they haven't sold out. Soo can Poo get parts where Yamaha can't? Or is yamaha playing it safe and Polaris is hoping for the best?

 

[whitedust]

No idea. The only thing not sold out now are the mountain sleds that have cat engines. So it seems the yamaha engines are what is in short supply.
It seems I'm getting daily emails from polaris reminding me of snowcheck, so I assume they haven't sold out. Soo can Poo get parts where Yamaha can't? Or is yamaha playing it safe and Polaris is hoping for the best?

Who knows? I’m very happy I’m set new 2019 900t Enduro March deal.

 

[1fujifilm]

So your the one that designed the Jeep Grand Cherokee and requiring me to take the front bumper off to change a damn headlight bulb. Just kidding! But I would love to strangle the engineer with my cut up hands who ever came up with that design.

What I want to know is who designed the electrical gremlins into these FCA/Stellaris vehicles.

Bear

 

[goofy600]

What I want to know is who designed the electrical gremlins into these FCA/Stellaris vehicles.

Bear

That’s simple it’s the bean counters. Use the minimum you can to make it as cheap as you can. A friend of mine just fixed his 3-6 month wait for the recall parts for his gmc truck by repairing the cheap small wiring that melted from overload. Almost new truck still under warranty but was not about to wait so did it himself.

 

[Dirty70Firebird]

That’s simple it’s the bean counters. Use the minimum you can to make it as cheap as you can. A friend of mine just fixed his 3-6 month wait for the recall parts for his gmc truck by repairing the cheap small wiring that melted from overload. Almost new truck still under warranty but was not about to wait so did it himself.

same reason not to purchase an extended warranty on a snow machine. Takes longer for the dealer to fix something that I can fix myself (if not catastrophic engine related issue), and the season is too short.

 

[old abe]

I am not arguing with you whether there will be an AC 7000 in 2023 our not. However, Kale, who runs Arctic Insider, says there definitely will not be a 7000 in 2023. He says there is an old picture showing an orange 7000, but the sled has been pulled from the lineup just before the rags published the picture. So, you say there will be and Arctic Insider says there won't be a 7000 for 2023, who is right? And, why would you know more than Kale with Arctic Insider?

Yeah, well, so much for "Kale" the Arctic Insider! He appears to be on the outside, looking in, eh?

 

[snobuilder]

Yeah, well, so much for "Kale" the Arctic Insider! He appears to be on the outside, looking in, eh?

So what actually happens in TRF anymore?...Do they have a separate set of employees that build Cats vs. Yamahas? does Yamaha still have a few of it's own components like clutching? And if the Viper is still offered, I don't think losing the 7000 is a great loss if it saves production costs. Maybe it was at first but the brand loyalty stuff is going away if you ask me. But dang, not putting EPS on all the 4 strokes is a dumb move. at these MSRP's I doubt the folks buying new will blink an eye.

 

[dfattack]

So what actually happens in TRF anymore?...Do they have a separate set of employees that build Cats vs. Yamahas? does Yamaha still have a few of it's own components like clutching? And if the Viper is still offered, I don't think losing the 7000 is a great loss if it saves production costs. Maybe it was at first but the brand loyalty stuff is going away if you ask me. But dang, not putting EPS on all the 4 strokes is a dumb move. at these MSRP's I doubt the folks buying new will blink an eye.

Totally agree. I used to hear..."but the weight" oh who gives a crap if you are a trail rider. Off trail yeah I can see the concern. The EPS actually makes the sled ride and handle as if it's lighter. The isolation from every little trail imperfection is really annoying too. I don't hear that discussed much but it's something I really appreciate with EPS

 

[G]

The same crew builds all the sleds. Robots weld and rivet the frames and other hard assemblies. Then everything gets funneled to a line where humans put everything together. They have a paint room new about five years ago that is state of the art. I watched mine get built 5 yeas ago. It doesnt take very long to put one together. About 1/2 hour if I remember right. Then they get run before they get crated up. They do have QC people standing around overseeing the whole process. I am going to guess about 150 people on the main assembly line. Other sub components like seats and rear suspensions have their own mini lines. The ladies that put the seats together are amazing. It takes them about a minute to put a seat together. Last time I put a new seat cover on it took me hours.
I can understand completely how missing one part could screw everything up. There are a LOT of parts if you take the time to think about it.

 

[whitedust]

Totally agree. I used to hear..."but the weight" oh who gives a crap if you are a trail rider. Off trail yeah I can see the concern. The EPS actually makes the sled ride and handle as if it's lighter. The isolation from every little trail imperfection is really annoying too. I don't hear that discussed much but it's something I really appreciate with EPS

IMO every trail snowmobile should have the option of eps. I remember when cars didn’t have power steering, power brakes and power windows as standard. Now those features are standard. I had a buddy that bought a stick shift Toyota maybe 6 years ago didn’t want power anything ended up having to special order probably paid more to have power features eliminated. Lol. I think riders that get used to eps always want it and will pay for it. Doo likes to charge for options eps option is right up their alley. Doo if smart would make eps backwards compatible dealers would make a fortune retrofitting sleds to eps. Currently Yamaha has eps on SWs why it took so many years to include it always puzzled me. Yamacats not my cup of tea but would have been in the running when I bought my 900t enduro but at the time doo was a no brainer.