Anyone find info on 2018 Yamaha sleds yet???

[journeyman]

Always talk about how expensive Yamaha is so you make a good point Bear, you can buy Vipers right now and Sidewinders for good prices. The price of a Sidewinder is very reasonable for 204 HP! Good Lord, try and make that happen with a current sled and see what it would cost, that's not disputable LOL! True Story As I've said million times it's all what you want. The points Bear makes regarding the Viper are true, that being said you can improve them for your liking without breaking the bank but it wasn't what he wanted and it makes sense for him. Pretty simple really. Journeyman you hit the nail on the head. Just think, this deal almost happened with Ski Doo before Cat. Could you imagine that? The ink was on paper and ready to be signed. Doo backed out last minute. Could you have imagined Yam motors in Doo chassis? It almost happened and that's a fact!

Now that's some inside info I didn't know!

 

[Hoosier]

Im guessing at least some of this comment is pointed towards me. Ok

Is anything said that isnt true?

I kno some people especially in todays world do not like to hear when a spade is called a spade.

Maybe once but not over and over again.

I did get a chance to ride a new Doo over a couple days a few weeks ago. I was surprised how solid it felt. They are obviously made well. I didn't get to push it hard on any trails but the only thing I wasn't sure about is I noticed I always sat at the far back of the seat - I'm not sure what I'd do if I wanted to stretch out a bit on longer days. I never thought I'd consider a Doo but it really felt like it was built well.

 

[Cirrus_Driver]

Always talk about how expensive Yamaha is so you make a good point Bear, you can buy Vipers right now and Sidewinders for good prices. The price of a Sidewinder is very reasonable for 204 HP! Good Lord, try and make that happen with a current sled and see what it would cost, that's not disputable LOL! True Story As I've said million times it's all what you want. The points Bear makes regarding the Viper are true, that being said you can improve them for your liking without breaking the bank but it wasn't what he wanted and it makes sense for him. Pretty simple really. Journeyman you hit the nail on the head. Just think, this deal almost happened with Ski Doo before Cat. Could you imagine that? The ink was on paper and ready to be signed. Doo backed out last minute. Could you have imagined Yam motors in Doo chassis? It almost happened and that's a fact!

OK - now that there is some "insider info". I'd be ON that sled today, if that would have happened. That would be a total dream machine. R-Motion or AXYS with Vector, Nytro or Apex motor. Love to be a fly on the wall to know why that didn't happen.
I think that combo would have put somebody out of business, or at the very least KILLED their market share.

 

[kip]

XXX007, know what you mean! Would've been something for sure. I think they probably looked at each other and maybe saw the potential for a disaster. The consumer would've won for sure in that deal

 

[whitedust]

Let's not forget Yamaha originally didn't go to Cat, Cat came to them. Cat knew they were losing their partnership with their engine supply pipeline with Suzuki. Cat was already in the makings of building their own 2 stroke but didn't have a 4 stroke option. They came to Yamaha asking to buy some of their motors as seen in the Nytro and Vector. In the meantime Yamaha was dealing with some supply issues of their own in Japan because of the Tsunami that had happened. Many of their suppliers were devastated from that. Yamaha liked their chassis and made the 5 year agreement with them. Obviously it has worked out and their snowmobile division has been reorganized moving their headquarters for snowmobiles to Canada. It does look like this partnership is going to go past the 5 year agreement. Yamaha always did have issues responding quickly to the sled market. Things can change fast. They handled their R&D more like a car company and it was a slow process. Good for quality but not so good for a constantly changing market.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3idBKZhHzE

Yep I heard about this years ago. Makes a lot of biz sense and exactly what you do in OEM biz by contacting the market leader for your OEM subsystem to max sales revenue. Heck I did just that myself in the OEM biz with inkjet coders and lasers. I'm sure the OEM discussions went very well between doo and Yamaha but it is a partnership and I'm sure Rotax hated the idea and made engine committments to wick up both 4s and 2s AR&D to whatever niche Yamaha was trying to penetrate.... who knows might have been the 850 project. Nothing like an OEM agreement to increase internal competition to combat the OEM product. Then there was Cat so both companies went with it and worked well too..The company to company interaction is very exciting never a dull moment.. I luved all the interaction and learned a lot about both products and got into things end user customers never thought about or dreamed about.. fun times!

 

[1fujifilm]

Always talk about how expensive Yamaha is so you make a good point Bear, you can buy Vipers right now and Sidewinders for good prices. The price of a Sidewinder is very reasonable for 204 HP! Good Lord, try and make that happen with a current sled and see what it would cost, that's not disputable LOL! True Story As I've said million times it's all what you want. The points Bear makes regarding the Viper are true, that being said you can improve them for your liking without breaking the bank but it wasn't what he wanted and it makes sense for him. Pretty simple really. Journeyman you hit the nail on the head. Just think, this deal almost happened with Ski Doo before Cat. Could you imagine that? The ink was on paper and ready to be signed. Doo backed out last minute. Could you have imagined Yam motors in Doo chassis? It almost happened and that's a fact!

FWIW, I would not buy a Ski-Doo 4 stroke either; its 850 or 600 Renegades for me. Last winter my friend rented a 900 Rene in Munising and we switched on the way to Paradise in the park and I thought "who the **** programmed the throttle on this thing, someone who never rode a sled I guess (I did toggle through settings too)". Also, it is just too damn slow for someone who rides above 70ish on the grades.

Bear

 

[momoney2123]

Yep I heard about this years ago. Makes a lot of biz sense and exactly what you do in OEM biz by contacting the market leader for your OEM subsystem to max sales revenue. Heck I did just that myself in the OEM biz with inkjet coders and lasers. I'm sure the OEM discussions went very well between doo and Yamaha but it is a partnership and I'm sure Rotax hated the idea and made engine committments to wick up both 4s and 2s AR&D to whatever niche Yamaha was trying to penetrate.... who knows might have been the 850 project. Nothing like an OEM agreement to increase internal competition to combat the OEM product. Then there was Cat so both companies went with it and worked well too..The company to company interaction is very exciting never a dull moment.. I luved all the interaction and learned a lot about both products and got into things end user customers never thought about or dreamed about.. fun times!

The 850 project would have gotten Yamaha back into 2 strokes, maybe this is the agreement gone wrong? hmmm.

Other wise a 4 stroke deal wouldn't make sense. BRP owns rotax and they already have engines in the viper vector segment, why undermine themselves and ACE tech? No current chassis from doo would fit the apex engine. I duno maybe it was the 850, but that seems odd too. Would love to been a fly on the wall during that deal and also when it went south.

 

[whitedust]

The 850 project would have gotten Yamaha back into 2 strokes, maybe this is the agreement gone wrong? hmmm.

Other wise a 4 stroke deal wouldn't make sense. BRP owns rotax and they already have engines in the viper vector segment, why undermine themselves and ACE tech? No current chassis from doo would fit the apex engine. I duno maybe it was the 850, but that seems odd too. Would love to been a fly on the wall on that deal and why it went south.

It's all about how the OEM relationship is more profibable than inhouse mfg of an item in this case no doubt 4s and 2s engines. It can't be OEM implementation as that would have been selection of the best of the best peeps to move things along. The 850 stands alone at Doo and in the 2s snomo engine industry for that matter and would have been of interest to Yamaha but not much from doo on the 4s side after the Ace. I sure thought doo would supercharge or turbo the Ace 900 or the 1200 but that didn't happen and don't know why because as you read here 4s users view sleds and weight much differently than a 2s user. I know my nearest Doo dealer was all about a 150-160 hp 4s 2 years ago and was told not going to happen. To me 4s and 2s engines are 2 separate users and markets and trying to force both together does not work. Yamaha knows that first hand and the 850 would have corrected that mistake and it appears doo needs to learn the same lesson about their 4s users. I also find it interesting doo has 2 chassis for 4s and 2s platforms. I would think the max profit is in fitting a 4s turbo in the Gen 4. Maybe can not be done or still working at it inhouse at doo where Yamaha would have easily come up with that engine. I'm sure both Doo and Yamaha are still talking... once the OEM contact is made it continues always checking to see if the climate has changed over time. Just the right thing to do if the OEM sales person is doing his/her job.

 

[momoney2123]

It's all about how the OEM relationship is more profibable than inhouse mfg of an item in this case no doubt 4s and 2s engines. It can't be OEM implementation as that would have been selection of the best of the best peeps to move things along. The 850 stands alone at Doo and in the 2s snomo engine industry for that matter and would have been of interest to Yamaha but not much from doo on the 4s side after the Ace. I sure thought doo would supercharge or turbo the Ace 900 or the 1200 but that didn't happen and don't know why because as you read here 4s users view sleds and weight much differently than a 2s user. I know my nearest Doo dealer was all about a 150-160 hp 4s 2 years ago and was told not going to happen. To me 4s and 2s engines are 2 separate users and markets and trying to force both together does not work. Yamaha knows that first hand and the 850 would have corrected that mistake and it appears doo needs to learn the same lesson about their 4s users. I also find it interesting doo has 2 chassis for 4s and 2s platforms. I would think the max profit is in fitting a 4s turbo in the Gen 4. Maybe can not be done or still working at it inhouse at doo where Yamaha would have easily come up with that engine. I'm sure both Doo and Yamaha are still talking... once the OEM contact is made it continues always checking to see if the climate has changed over time. Just the right thing to do if the OEM sales person is doing his/her job.

Everyone knew no way was a turbo sled coming this year. This is typical doo and really any manufacturer as mentioned before. not going to bring two BIG items back to back years. Last year was intro to G4, this year XRS and free-rides come along, not gonna undermine themselves with a turbo 4s release. Bad business...you kno that

Don't think a 4s will fit in the current G4, but im sure some type g4 4 stroke chassis is coming. that is when you will see the forced fed engine If they go that route. which if they keep 47% market share not sure we will ever see that type of stuff from them.

 

[whitedust]

Everyone knew no way was a turbo sled coming this year. This is typical doo and really any manufacturer as mentioned before. not going to bring two BIG items back to back years. Last year was intro to G4, this year XRS and free-rides come along, not gonna undermine themselves with a turbo 4s release. Bad business...you kno that

Don't think a 4s will fit in the current G4, but im sure some type g4 4 stroke chassis is coming. that is when you will see the forced fed engine If they go that route. which if they keep 47% market share not sure we will ever see that type of stuff from them.

With 2 very poor winters in the greater Midwest and East Coast I didn't expect much from many OEMs. No OEM can release many new products when non current inventory is high. I don't call it bad biz just a measured release of new products to pipeline of non currents. They all need to empty the pipeline at reasonable discounts then move on. Imo it might be BNG for all 4 for the near future. Yes Yamaha builds heavy 4s snow machines but their users know they can ride their current sleds another year with no break downs. Sure there is disappointment that an all new Apex platform was not released but when you ask them what now?... most say riding my Apex for the foreseeable future or SW looks good for me. Yamaha saying 2018 is the last year of Apex means it is either gone and will be replaced with a new platform or is dropped from the line replaced by SW. Idk what will happen but worth waiting to see what Yamaha and Textron does with their OEM agreement and public statements each release? Textron could fight it out with Poo and doo on the 600 and 800 2s market plus have 4s sleds for that market very simular to the doo lineup. Doo should watch AC more than Poo since now owned by Textron...imo. It will be very interesting to see Yamaha's next move as many things can happen but we just have to wait & see what evolves.

 

[Attak man]

If you want to figure out what Yamaha is doing...simply watch their annual shareholder reports (every February)....it's translated to English...very to the point, and precise....(but boring AF...lol)...when I saw them talking about 2017 projections on the powersports division (snowmobiles, atvs, and watercraft)...and they were projecting lower sales numbers than 2016...I knew they weren't coming with any new models....ROI (return on investment) is something they hammer home on every report...the Japanese are very conservative on this (and the numbers they project show this)....snowmobiles right now have a POOR ROI...we have an aging sport that is not attracting new buyers, and the sleds keep getting more and more expensive....maybe Yamaha is on to something with this snow scoot?? Anything that can introduce new people to the sport is a good thing.

The truth is...nobody knows what Yamaha Japan's plan for snowmobiles is....except at this point they are still here...so all this doom and gloom talk is premature. The snowmobile division was moved to Toronto, and what that means...I'm not sure...I do believe in order for Yamaha to remain competitive in the future...they will need to produce their sleds here (north America)....whether that is via a joint venture with arctic cat, (which makes sense), or they branch out on their own..who knows?? Maybe Yamaha will buy the sled division from Textron, and produce arctic cat snowmobiles (with Yamaha 4 strokes), and Yamaha sleds right at the current manufacturing facility...that would make sense to me...but again who knows.

I do know this...losing ANY of the BIG Four will hurt our sport tremendously....I know ski-doo guys gloat over having a 47 percent market share...but refuse to see that it's a dying, and declining market...ATVs/UTVs, out sell snowmobiles 2 to 1.....15 years ago atv registration surpassed the number of sleds registered in Wisconsin. Our sport is slowly dying.

 

[momoney2123]

If you want to figure out what Yamaha is doing...simply watch their annual shareholder reports (every February)....it's translated to English...very to the point, and precise....(but boring AF...lol)...when I saw them talking about 2017 projections on the powersports division (snowmobiles, atvs, and watercraft)...and they were projecting lower sales numbers than 2016...I knew they weren't coming with any new models....ROI (return on investment) is something they hammer home on every report...the Japanese are very conservative on this (and the numbers they project show this)....snowmobiles right now have a POOR ROI...we have an aging sport that is not attracting new buyers, and the sleds keep getting more and more expensive....maybe Yamaha is on to something with this snow scoot?? Anything that can introduce new people to the sport is a good thing.

The truth is...nobody knows what Yamaha Japan's plan for snowmobiles is....except at this point they are still here...so all this doom and gloom talk is premature. The snowmobile division was moved to Toronto, and what that means...I'm not sure...I do believe in order for Yamaha to remain competitive in the future...they will need to produce their sleds here (north America)....whether that is via a joint venture with arctic cat, (which makes sense), or they branch out on their own..who knows?? Maybe Yamaha will buy the sled division from Textron, and produce arctic cat snowmobiles (with Yamaha 4 strokes), and Yamaha sleds right at the current manufacturing facility...that would make sense to me...but again who knows.

I do know this...losing ANY of the BIG Four will hurt our sport tremendously....I know ski-doo guys gloat over having a 47 percent market share...but refuse to see that it's a dying, and declining market...ATVs/UTVs, out sell snowmobiles 2 to 1.....15 years ago atv registration surpassed the number of sleds registered in Wisconsin. Our sport is slowly dying.

I don't feel the sport is dieing, maybe im crazy but weekends up north this year were crazy packed every bar and the amount of trailers I seen going north or south was nutz....out west got hammered with snow so im sure their season was above average. tuff to just say its dieing in my eyes

Poo, Cat and doo are going no where. Yamaha who knows if they will just merge with cat and build engines or bring their own chassis which would be a plus

 

[G]

I could believe Yami could have supplied 4 smoker for 'Doo but there is no way 'Doo would ever dump Rotax 2 smokers. No way. They OWN E-Tec patents and a whole bunch of other stuff. They are not just going to abandon everything they have done and done well for the last 15 years.

 

[G]

I don't feel the sport is dieing, maybe im crazy but weekends up north this year were crazy packed every bar and the amount of trailers I seen going north or south was nutz....out west got hammered with snow so im sure their season was above average. tuff to just say its dieing in my eyes

Poo, Cat and doo are going no where. Yamaha who knows if they will just merge with cat and build engines or bring their own chassis which would be a plus

Of course the sport is dying. Old people are getting older and quitting and there are very few new people. Maybe Mich had snow but that is a very small area. Northwestern Wisc had 3 weeks of ridable snow. My own area up here next to Canada had about 3 weeks of decent conditions. More and more can no longer justify the expensive new tin. My own group was 15 guys 15 years ago. Now we are two.

 

[whitedust]

Everything I read says the snowmobile market is shrinking in the USA based on new unit sales ...world wide? ...maybe not. For aging boomers that are selling their snowmobiles they always seem to find someone who will buy a used sled or trailer...maybe not for the asking price but used sleds & trailers will sell at discounted prices. If not discounted they are not selling. New products from OEMs are based on the ROI of new tooling to mfg and sell new products. Doo is in pretty good shape to just sell G4 and 850 for the near future so I don't expect much new stuff from them as the investment has already been made so in harvest mode. Poo in harvest mode too so expect BNG from them too maybe tweak gauges, GPS stuff like that. AC has a very attractive market position with new 600 and 800 2s plus 4s by Yamaha. Yamaha is in the worst market position no 2s offerings and 4s platforms are very old in the tooth. Yamaha mfgs high quality engines and sleds no doubt about that but no one really understands where they are going productwise or what the future will be for the snowmobile division. Imo Yamaha could release a lot of really neat sleds looking at their recent patents but new tooling will cost a ton of money to implement mfg in the USA. I'm not convinced that Yamaha will invest in the snowmobile division for new productss and I don't see ROI in a shrinking market of high priced new products and tooling...I do think there are peeps within Yamaha that are a lot smarter than me and they will do what is best for Yamaha. So far that is building what they can from the parts bin not building something that is new from the ground up based on market demands. Yamaha is driven by engineering not marketing and has to decide what is neaxt in 2019. To me Yamaha already knows but has not gone public with that direction.

 

[Hoosier]

I don't feel the sport is dieing, maybe im crazy but weekends up north this year were crazy packed every bar and the amount of trailers I seen going north or south was nutz....out west got hammered with snow so im sure their season was above average. tuff to just say its dieing in my eyes

Poo, Cat and doo are going no where. Yamaha who knows if they will just merge with cat and build engines or bring their own chassis which would be a plus

I agree. I think people keep sleds longer than before too which hurts sales

Midwest sales might be down but sales in the West and Canada have been growing, last season being an exception.

 

[Attak man]

I need to find the numbers for you guys.(these numbers are from memory so don't quote me...lol)..but I believe the average of a snowmobiler in the USA was 38 years old (the average age of a Yamaha snowmobile owner was 42)..average median income was $52,000 (so it's definitely not a young, or poor person sport)....in 2014 the Wisconsin DNR had 232,902 snowmobiles registered...that was up from the all time low in 2013 of 225,000 sleds.....in 1997 Wisconsin had over 600,000 registered snowmobiles....again unofficial...don't have the numbers in front of me..(at work) I'm sure Michigan and Minnesota saw similar declines.....this sport has been in a down word spiral for nearly 20 years..and the few low end and family models produced by the manufacturers during this time frame is right in line with this decline...snowmobiling is an "old person sport"...it is not getting younger (look how many of us regulars here on johndee are in our 40s, 50s, and 60s)

Numbers don't tell the whole story of course...but that 20 year decline in numbers says a lot if you ask me.

 

[momoney2123]

Of course the sport is dying. Old people are getting older and quitting and there are very few new people. Maybe Mich had snow but that is a very small area. Northwestern Wisc had 3 weeks of ridable snow. My own area up here next to Canada had about 3 weeks of decent conditions. More and more can no longer justify the expensive new tin. My own group was 15 guys 15 years ago. Now we are two.

Our group keeps growing and growing...we have had to split it up as walking into bars with 20 people sux.

We rode for 3 months in northern WI. started at Christmas went all the way till now. Just need to know where to look

this appears to be it tho.

 

[Hoosier]

I need to find the numbers for you guys.(these numbers are from memory so don't quote me...lol)..but I believe the average of a snowmobiler in the USA was 38 years old (the average age of a Yamaha snowmobile owner was 42)..average median income was $52,000 (so it's definitely not a young, or poor person sport)....in 2014 the Wisconsin DNR had 232,902 snowmobiles registered...that was up from the all time low in 2013 of 225,000 sleds.....in 1997 Wisconsin had over 600,000 registered snowmobiles....again unofficial...don't have the numbers in front of me..(at work) I'm sure Michigan and Minnesota saw similar declines.....this sport has been in a down word spiral for nearly 20 years..and the few low end and family models produced by the manufacturers during this time frame is right in line with this decline...snowmobiling is an "old person sport"...it is not getting younger (look how many of us regulars here on johndee are in our 40s, 50s, and 60s)

Numbers don't tell the whole story of course...but that 20 year decline in numbers says a lot if you ask me.

Yeah I definitely agree if you look long-term. The last 4 or 5 years (before last year) had a bit of an increase though, if I remember right.

I think you're definitely right that it hurts not having any family model sleds available. Maybe the sno scoot will help. The way the sleds are now, they're getting bought by those taking them on trips and riding them all day long. I don't think the technology or the price is right for the guy wanting to head out in the fields for a couple hours after work which I'm guessing is were the long-term declines are.

 

[dfattack]

Here's my theory. It's based on my own personal experiences as well as friends of mine with families.

I don't have actual statistics that can prove this out...only an observation of mine

1. It doesn't seem to me that the younger (20's or even early 30's) generation has the available cash to invest in our sport. I think this is partially due to our economic environment we are in at the moment. the buying power of our hard earned cash is not what it used to be. Salaries are stagnant yet the price of sleds, automobiles, rent (for the younger generation) are all sky high. Income is not keeping pace.

2. When you mix #1 with the fact that most families are just starting out the money is set aside for diapers, day care, food, etc...In that age group most of us know from experience a lot of times family responsibilities get in the way of riding. Single people of course won't have this problem but most of us eventually have families. So now not only money but time gets in the way. When you don't have the time you are not going to spend the money on something you can't do anyways. If you do in fact have the money...you may still spend it on a sled and squeeze in a trip or two...no money...no spending on riding.

I think the older age of the riders is due to the fact of not having #1 or #2 getting in the way. Kids are older or now riding with us and we have finally started to earn enough money to afford the sport. My opinion is that hopefully we can get our economy rev'd up to finally help the wages of workers (middle class & younger people starting out) catch up with the cost of living so they have a little left over to spend on recreation.

My son is now 25 and I know for a fact if it wasn't for me helping him out with extra time off here and there he wouldn't be riding and he's single! I can give him some extra time off and to be honest I even control his pay. He works for me. I want to have him earning more but I also need to maintain budgets too. My managers ( even me at the time working for my Dad) made more money (compared to cost of living) in the 80's and 90's than they do now. There just isn't enough to go around. If the economy were to work it's way out of this anemic growth rate of 1 or 1 1/2% and jumped into the 3% or more growth rate maybe wages would bump up too. I know in my business I would then be able to afford to pay higher wages and would be able to retain workers better and attract higher qualified workers...at all levels.

This is my personal opinion on the "dying sport". I don't think this is a case of a certain percentage of our society not liking the sport anymore. I think it's not as easy to afford..time and money.

Of course....SNOWY WINTERS WOULD ALWAYS HELP!