Attn: WI CLUBS

[blu2u2]

Since I was called on in this thread I will give my 2 cents....

The clubs in WI need something to bring more money into the system. Not including this season; each of the last couple of years there has been a shortage of $1.5 million to $2 million each year! That is why the supplement has been in the 50 to 65 percent range. What type of operation can run with more money going out than what is coming in?

How many of you got to ride the "wash board" trails from the big leap year storm in Northern WI this year? I understand that most of the problem was too much heavy/wet snow at once so the groomers couldn't groom. However, unless something changes in the next couple of years clubs might not be able to maintain the trails.

Is the CAP/STEP Program the answer... Yes, if it ever happens??? Are WI residents paying a lot less than our neighboring (MN & MI) states to own and operate a snowmobile???...YES! Will the AWSC ever look at a Plan B since the CAP/STEP is not looking to get passed???

The AWSC Convention, which will be held in Manitowoc in 2 weeks, has a General Meeting that starts at 9:00 on Sat. You don't have to be a director or rep. to attend.

 

[jr37]

blu2u2,
Thanks for your input, I hope you don't mind me mentioning you on this topic. I knew you would have facts

Also, why is it so difficult to get the CAP/STEP program passed? It seems like a no-brainer to me. Is the arguement over administration or what?

 

[fusion]

Fusion, you need to get your facts straight. 90s is 100% correct. The funded trails in WI are 100% user funded. Nothing comes out of the taxpayer's pocket to fund them. The gas tax on X number of gallons per registered sled is transferred to the snowmobile trail fund. The state assumes that each registered sled uses X number of gallons per year (I forget exactly what that number is). Regardless of what the actual gas tax is, only a small percentage is used for the snowmobile fund. It's a user funded system. The more registered sleds there are, the more money that goes into the fund from registration dollars and from the gas tax formula.

This is something our worthless legislators in Madison can't seem to get through their thick skulls about CAP/STEP. The AWSC is asking to increase fees paid by those who use the system, not the general taxpayer. The clubs desperately need money to cover trail maintenance, improvement and grooming.

Truth is, we have it cheap here in WI. $30 every 2 years for registration is a joke. Michigan requires registration and the $45 yearly permit. The Canadian provinces are the same way...registration and a yearly trail pass, which is around $225 in Ontario.

So fine, raise the permit fee's, but leave the GD gas taxes alone!
I'm one of those that say they should suspend the gas tax entirely with the oil companies gouging us right now. Do we have to tax everything in this god forsaken, tax he!l of a state?
Whatever way you describe it, whether it's per gallon sold or directly allocated, fact is, some amount of gas tax is being funneled to the snowmobile maintenance system.
The problem is, many people such as yourself view "their" piece of the gas tax allocation as being insignificant, but then all those special interest, incremental amounts add up to some of the largest gas taxes in the US. The reason taxes go up and get out of control is incremental-ism - just like the US debt.
And make no mistake, snowmobiling as it relates to tourism in this state, DEFINES special interest group. And I am part of that special interest, but I don't want everybody else in the state to pay for my snowmobiling fixation each winter. For 2 potential months of fun, I should insist some other fool pay for it?

This has been talked about for years, but when will somebody get serious and actually make all snowmobile owners join a club? Funnel that money to trail maintenance.

And I'm not going to go back and read the thread again, but whomever suggests the reason the trails were not groomed on 29-FEB was because of lack of funding is being disingenuous and using excessive rhetoric to make their point.
With the winter we had, I have a hard time believing the clubs ran out of groomer funding on that date.
We had how many weeks without sufficient snow to groom? That was money saved by the clubs right there.

 

[jr37]

The CAP/STEP program would be a great benefit to us all. Join a club or pay more to ride your sled. All the extra funds go to the snowmobile program, we all win. What is the hang-up? This is a win-win situation, and it doesn't affect all taxpayers.

 

[blu2u2]

So fine, raise the permit fee's, but leave the GD gas taxes alone!
I'm one of those that say they should suspend the gas tax entirely with the oil companies gouging us right now. Do we have to tax everything in this god forsaken, tax he!l of a state?
Whatever way you describe it, whether it's per gallon sold or directly allocated, fact is, some amount of gas tax is being funneled to the snowmobile maintenance system.
The problem is, many people such as yourself view "their" piece of the gas tax allocation as being insignificant, but then all those special interest, incremental amounts add up to some of the largest gas taxes in the US. The reason taxes go up and get out of control is incremental-ism - just like the US debt.
And make no mistake, snowmobiling as it relates to tourism in this state, DEFINES special interest group. And I am part of that special interest, but I don't want everybody else in the state to pay for my snowmobiling fixation each winter. For 2 potential months of fun, I should insist some other fool pay for it?

This has been talked about for years, but when will somebody get serious and actually make all snowmobile owners join a club? Funnel that money to trail maintenance.

And I'm not going to go back and read the thread again, but whomever suggests the reason the trails were not groomed on 29-FEB was because of lack of funding is being disingenuous and using excessive rhetoric to make their point.
With the winter we had, I have a hard time believing the clubs ran out of groomer funding on that date.
We had how many weeks without sufficient snow to groom? That was money saved by the clubs right there.

Fusion if you read the post the I wrote about the poor trails after the big leap-year storm it clearly states that the main reason for the poor trails was due to the large amount of heavy/wet snow in a short time period. I never said the the clubs didn't groom because of a lack of funds. I did say that IF the system doesn't change then in the FUTURE it could be possible that clubs might not be able to maintain the trails.

 

[rocky367]

The shortfalls in money is really going to bite the clubs in a few years because of bridges needing to be built, trails that have been or been discussed not being built or funded and other activities that are not being funded. I know for our local groomer operations that we bought two tractors over the last few years due to the decreased cost to operate and we can rent them out, that is one way we can afford to have units to use for grooming and not because of money we get from the state for grooming. I'm thinking groups will have to get smart on how they find extra funds for running their program. I see maybe clubs starting to combine operations and covering larger areas in that more funds will come into the one group vs two groups buying a groomer each and signs and spreading dollars out.

Cap/Step, one issue I have is that even though it will bring members into the clubs we have no way to make sure those people work on trails and be active. Sure, it looks good on paper for the AWSC to say that now due to Cap/Step they have more members but are those people going to be active or are they just joining to save money? And I'm hoping that all the clubs will be even on membership fees not one that is say way up north that is twenty dollars and my club is 30 and folks from here join the club up north as that's a better deal.

 

[groomerdriver]

.....but I don't want everybody else in the state to pay for my snowmobiling fixation each winter. For 2 potential months of fun, I should insist some other fool pay for it?

Dude, did you not read how the gas tax is calculated? Before you make statements like this, get a clue!

Why do you other guys waste your time with this guy?

 

[snocatmike]

First off I hate to write but I donot like step-cap the way it is. At one time are club had over 300 members and only 10 people worked on the trail should the 290 have got a break? Who desides where the money the club gets is spent the club next to us has 160 members and 0 miles of trail donated therer extra money to the food pantry 0.00 to the trail. Then do all clubs get a break as hunting club fishing club car club?

 

[blu2u2]

blu2u2,
Thanks for your input, I hope you don't mind me mentioning you on this topic. I knew you would have facts

Also, why is it so difficult to get the CAP/STEP program passed? It seems like a no-brainer to me. Is the arguement over administration or what?

No problem...you got me "off the bench".

I feel that the main reason why the CAP/STEP program is not being passed is due to the fact that the majority of residents in WI that have registered snowmobiles are not club members....the term "majority rules" comes into play. The ratio is something like 1 to 4 depending on the exact number of registered snowmobiles (this number is down about 40% this year due to the unfavorable weather) and the number of sleds that each owner has. Note that I am using 200,000 as the # of registered sleds and 25,000 for the number of current members in the AWSC. If the average snowmobile owner has 2 sleds, this how the 1 to 4 ratio (25%) was calculated. Since the majority (75%+/-) of the snowmobilers in WI are not club members they most likely would not be in favor of having to pay $20 more per year than what the club members are paying.... Politicians tend to listen to their constituents!
The following video explains just how the trails in WI are managed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTV_apTJU2M
For the record I am only trying to state MY opinion on this.

 

[rocky367]

Blu2u2, I should state that my opinions are of mine also and not of the club that I am President of or the Groomer Association that I'm with also. I feel that SnoCatMike hit the the nail on the head with what I feel is there with CAP/STEP along with the folks who don't register sleds until we have snow, currently you can register and print off on the internet and ride within five minutes, I'm curious as to how that will be handled especially with going to every year registration.

We have digressed from the real topic and that is how to properly fund for years like this where there is no snow but then we need to be planning for next season where we could spend 10,000 in diesel fuel and end up not having the funds because we have spent our money paying for equipment, signage, insurance and whatever else we need to open trails up. Yes, we have funding and are guaranteed a certain amount, but it seems every year lately we are running a deficit in the organizations I'm in and we have to keep doing fundraisers to make up the difference, but on a year like this we are now running a bit behind because of the setup.

I'm enjoying this topic and loving the banter if you ignore the ones that don't have their stuff correct. This is a topic that I keep coming back to when we discuss our finances locally.

 

[groomerdriver]

Yes, we have funding and are guaranteed a certain amount, but it seems every year lately we are running a deficit in the organizations I'm in and we have to keep doing fundraisers to make up the difference, but on a year like this we are now running a bit behind because of the setup.

With the costs of equipment, fuel, signs, etc etc continuing to increase, the amount per mile of state funded trail ($265 - dependent on your grooming equipment) has not risen to keep up with the soaring costs. Then when we go over the allotted amount per mile and get into supplemental funding, we are usually not reimbursed at 100% of our overage because there's not enough money in the state snowmobile fund coffers to help the clubs recover their costs.

So where should the additional funding come from? What are the options?

1. Forget about asking the non-snowmobiler to pay.....it won't pass thru and become law.
2. Out of state trail pass? - did it and it's not enough to make a significant impact
3. Raise sled registration fees? In a club or not...you pay more (I support this option)
4. CAP/Step - not perfect to some but it's a step in the right direction to others (I support this option)

Think about it for a minute.....if it weren't for the VOLUNTEERS in clubs, how would the trails appear and disappear every year? You would have to have a PAID group of people to do this. The sled registration/trail pass/etc fees would go sky high but the onus would be off the volunteers and onto the business units to make the trails happen every year.

FYI - don't put the onus on the AWSC to make this all happen.....they can't. It's the WI DNR and the WI government that make the rules, regs and laws for the program.

Great topic that needs to be be in the forefront of the sledders minds.

 

[rocky367]

Groomerdriver, excellent post that gets to the heart of the subject and hits on my points. And yes, my club has volunteers but for my club and others in the area it all older folks that seem to be the ones to do the work. I'm 39 and take my kids out, but it seems others in this age and younger don't seem to want or find the time to help out and that is also an issue. Will the changes by Cap/Step help? I don't know.. I know it will make some people choose but will they come out to trim brush and pound stakes? Or get the calls dealing with land issues? My feeling is probably not because they've been forced to do it, maybe the added revenue from them joining a club will help the local clubs to a somewhat bit, but something at the state level definetly needs to be changed in the way funding is handled to account for down years and extreme years. Supplemental is an evil beast that in my opinion needs to be somehow removed (yes, I said that) as all it seems to do is encourage some clubs to abuse the system to pad the accounts to make up for the shortfalls. The last few years we have reached supplemental, and done it as far as I can tell legitimaly but we still didn't make anywhere what we spent to get there. And no, the AWSC can't fix this, we all need to hit our representatives hard on these issues and make them aware that there are problems at the county level that need to be fixed to enable the survivability of the local clubs.

Looking forward as I said before, I really question having so many individual clubs and groups for grooming and trails, I feel personally that some counties may be better off consolidating their organizations to better serve their area. It may not be a popular idea at this time but I think instead of 10 different clubs for one county with each having their own groomer can better serve the area with fewer clubs and less groomers used wisely.. Yeah, pipe dream!

 

[Deleted member 10829]

I agree it's the older folks that do 99% of the work. I'm not sure how any work will get done when these people aren't physically able to do it any more. I worked 4 seperate days for a total of 23 hours this fall as we had a terrible wind storm up here July 1st and the trails were a mess. It was so bad in areas the National Guard came in to help clear trees from roads etc, so you can only imagine what some of the trails looked like. I was always the youngest person out there working, and I'm 50!! Same thing at most meetings, not many people under 40 there. And who are the first to whine when trails aren't signed, brushed or groomed perfectly? The same people that won't lift a finger to help in any way. Until people have been an active club member, they really don't have a clue to what it takes!

 

[RVR RNR]

groomerdriver,rocky367 and mspease- thanks for your input and getting this thread back on topic! It sounds like we are all on the same page here. I really like the way MN program is run; where you get $ up front and don't have to "earn" it. How are we supposed to operate in low/no snow years such as this one? It's getting really frustrating trying to make ends meet each season at $250/mi.- let alone trying to use it up w/no snow. Or, applying for supplemental when we have a big snow year and you only get back $.50 on the dollar. We have 4 Co. Assoc. owned groomers; '95 Tucker, '96 BR 160, '97 LMC 1800 and a '99 CASE MX 120. With 200 funded mi. at $250/mi. [$50,000] we can never afford to replace even 1 of these w/ a new unit! CAP/STEP is a good thing, even if it is flawed. If it does not pass we need a plan "B" or many clubs are going to be in trouble. We CANNOT keep asking volunteers to do more with less!!!!!

 

[blu2u2]

With the costs of equipment, fuel, signs, etc etc continuing to increase, the amount per mile of state funded trail ($265 - dependent on your grooming equipment) has not risen to keep up with the soaring costs. Then when we go over the allotted amount per mile and get into supplemental funding, we are usually not reimbursed at 100% of our overage because there's not enough money in the state snowmobile fund coffers to help the clubs recover their costs.

So where should the additional funding come from? What are the options?

1. Forget about asking the non-snowmobiler to pay.....it won't pass thru and become law.
2. Out of state trail pass? - did it and it's not enough to make a significant impact
3. Raise sled registration fees? In a club or not...you pay more (I support this option)
4. CAP/Step - not perfect to some but it's a step in the right direction to others (I support this option)

Think about it for a minute.....if it weren't for the VOLUNTEERS in clubs, how would the trails appear and disappear every year? You would have to have a PAID group of people to do this. The sled registration/trail pass/etc fees would go sky high but the onus would be off the volunteers and onto the business units to make the trails happen every year.

FYI - don't put the onus on the AWSC to make this all happen.....they can't. It's the WI DNR and the WI government that make the rules, regs and laws for the program.

Great topic that needs to be be in the forefront of the sledders minds.

I agree with the majority of what you said above. The only issue I disagree with is that the AWSC has no power. How can the organization that is in charge of 95% of the trails in the state have no power? If the AWSC would propose something that is unbiased (across the board rate increase?) to the lawmakers things would likely change!

For anyone who didn't see the poll that I posted; please see the following link and vote.
http://www.johndee.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?34673-WI-Trail-Funding-Poll

 

[groomerdriver]

I agree with the majority of what you said above. The only issue I disagree with is that the AWSC has no power. How can the organization that is in charge of 95% of the trails in the state have no power? If the AWSC would propose something that is unbiased (across the board rate increase?) to the lawmakers things would likely change!

For anyone who didn't see the poll that I posted; please see the following link and vote.
http://www.johndee.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?34673-WI-Trail-Funding-Poll

The AWSC doesn't have the power you think it has. I would talk to your county AWSC director and have him/her explain what the role the AWSC plays in all of this.

 

[blu2u2]

The AWSC doesn't have the power you think it has. I would talk to your county AWSC director and have him/her explain what the role the AWSC plays in all of this.

Since I am the Director of Outagamie County I would have to say you are WRONG!

 

[groomerdriver]

Since I am the Director of Outagamie County I would have to say you are WRONG!

Doug, please take the time to explain to all of us just how the AWSC is "in charge" of 95% of the trails? Do they disburse funding money to the counties/clubs? Do they develop the trail sign regs for the trails? I could ask more but I won't go there. the AWSC is 95% the reason why WI has the great trail system it does....I will give you that. Do you REALLY think that if the AWSC suggested an across the board increase it would pass? C'mon!

 

[blu2u2]

groomerdriver, I sent you a PM. Sorry for my loud words above!

 

[90s]

The reason we get money from gas tax is because the sleds are not used on the highway system, off road only. This is where the money comes from the Federal also, the Federal gas tax comes back to the states in the form of RTP, RTA, TE money to be used on motorized & non motorizde projcets.