Blown 2009 600 E TEC

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olsmann

New member
srt20 said:
Again, false. Reread your post. How can you think it even comes close to making sense??
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Please enter your reason for it being false instead of just repeating yourself that its false. How can an engine with a lean condition either due to an air leak or improper air to fuel mixture or some other circumstance be saved from a lean burndown by adding oil to the gas? Also explain how mixing oil in the gas does NOT actually thin the fuel?
 
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srt20

srt20

Active member
Here is one of my posts from a previous thread about adding oil in the gas tank;

This is completely incorrect. You will not burndown an engine because of to much oil. 2-stroke oil is meant to MIX with gasoline. Also, if you do happen to dump 3 gallons of oil in with 6 gallons of gas, your plugs will foul before your pistons have a chance to even get anywhere near up to temperature. And if for some ungodly reason your plugs didnt foul, and your injectors didnt plug up, you in cylinder temps would never get anywhere near 1200*F because oil burns alot slower than gas. No explosion, no heat. The only way you could possibly run that much oil, is to have extremely high compression ratio, like that of a diesel engine. And with ports instead of valves in the engine, that aint gonna happen.

Alot of BS in this thread.

Running pre-mix in a new, or rebuilt machine for the first tank to check to make sure the oil pump is working properly is a great idea. However, it does not help seat the rings. If you want to seat the rings properly, take it out and beat the snot out of it for a little while. Get it fully up to temp, no WOT for long distances, no steady throttle for long distances, just up and down the RPM range constantly. Get er good and warm, and let it sit over night to cool completely. Thats the proper way.

Having said all that, the manufacturers are not going rely on the consumers to PROPERLY break in the engine. You can do pretty much do whatever you want to them, and MOST of the time you will be fine. I dont know for a fact, but I suspect the engines are all ran for at least a few minutes before they leave the factory.
 
srt20

srt20

Active member
olsmann said:
Please enter your reason for it being false instead of just repeating yourself that its false. How can an engine with a lean condition either due to an air leak or improper air to fuel mixture or some other circumstance be saved from a lean burndown by adding oil to the gas? Also explain how mixing oil in the gas does NOT actually thin the fuel?
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Read my above post.


I never said the engine would be saved. But it most definately has a CHANCE at being saved. Adding no oil cant save it. Adding oil, if enough is added and the rpms are varied until it can be worked on, MIGHT save it.

Adding oil will never thin fuel. I dont know how adding a thicker liquid could possibly thin an already thinner liquid.

BTW, 2 stroke oil is meant to MIX with gas. Even motor oil will MIX with gas.
 
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olsmann

New member
srt20 said:
Here is one of my posts from a previous thread about adding oil in the gas tank;

This is completely incorrect. You will not burndown an engine because of to much oil. 2-stroke oil is meant to MIX with gasoline. Also, if you do happen to dump 3 gallons of oil in with 6 gallons of gas, your plugs will foul before your pistons have a chance to even get anywhere near up to temperature. And if for some ungodly reason your plugs didnt foul, and your injectors didnt plug up, you in cylinder temps would never get anywhere near 1200*F because oil burns alot slower than gas. No explosion, no heat. The only way you could possibly run that much oil, is to have extremely high compression ratio, like that of a diesel engine. And with ports instead of valves in the engine, that aint gonna happen.

Alot of BS in this thread.

Running pre-mix in a new, or rebuilt machine for the first tank to check to make sure the oil pump is working properly is a great idea. However, it does not help seat the rings. If you want to seat the rings properly, take it out and beat the snot out of it for a little while. Get it fully up to temp, no WOT for long distances, no steady throttle for long distances, just up and down the RPM range constantly. Get er good and warm, and let it sit over night to cool completely. Thats the proper way.

Having said all that, the manufacturers are not going rely on the consumers to PROPERLY break in the engine. You can do pretty much do whatever you want to them, and MOST of the time you will be fine. I dont know for a fact, but I suspect the engines are all ran for at least a few minutes before they leave the factory.
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I never said it will burndown from doing this. I SAID it will not prevent a burndown from other issues. Old premix sleds were jetted up for this very reason. Adding oil to the gas does displace the fuel so less fuel going into the motor with the same airflow. I never said you sled will burndown from adding oit to the gas . I said it isnt going to prevent a burndown. If a sled is going to burn down from a lean condition, Oil in the gas will not prevent it. Adding oil to the gas thinking you are some how going to have a more reliable engine is incorrect.
 
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srt20

srt20

Active member
olsmann said:
Putting oil in your gas actually creates a LEAN condition. Your thining out the fuel by doing it and it WONT prevent a burndown. You however will have well oiled crank and rings with a nice hole in the top of the piston. diluting gasoline with more oil does not equal prevent burndowns created by a lean condition. Might prevent a seizure (maybe) But if you have a air leak or bad fuel to air mixture issue it wont help.
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Ok, lets start over.


Putting oil in your gas does NOT create a lean condition.
Putting oil in your gas does NOT thin out the gas.
Putting oil in your gas does NOT provide extra oil to your crank on a etec, the sled in this topic.
Putting oil in you gas, very well could prevent a hole in the top of the piston, especially when that extra oil and gas cool in cylinder temps.
 
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olsmann

New member
srt20 said:
Ok, lets start over.


Putting oil in your gas does NOT create a lean condition.
Putting oil in your gas does NOT thin out the gas.
Putting oil in your gas does NOT provide extra oil to your crank on a etec, the sled in this topic.
Putting oil in you gas, very well could prevent a hole in the top of the piston, especially when that extra oil and gas cool in cylinder temps.[/QUOT

Why start over? Because you disagree?
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olsmann

New member
srt20 said:
Because you are spreading false information.
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So your opinion(which it is and nothing more, same as mine) is the only one that should be alowed in the tech section? Other than you just SAYING so why should yours be anymore valid?
 
srt20

srt20

Active member
See now you are trying to turn this personal.

I never said my opinion is the only one that matters.

I am saying that you are wrong and spreading false info. I am done with this now because you are obvious not gonna see were you are wrong. Thats fine, but dont be telling others false info.
 
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olsmann

New member
I spent a little over 2 years in the dyno room at polaris in Osceola with a year before that in the run up room on the 2 stroke engine line. The engeineering dept talked about this over and over again. As a matter of fact we were instucted to run 600 motors on the dyno with the injection and without (premix) so the engineers could tear them down afterwards to examine them . And every single time we ran premix tests we were instructed to jet up for this very reason. Im basing my opinon on that expierience and years of Polaris engineers disagreeing with you as well. Im not making this personel i just disagree with you.
 
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uncle_ed

uncle_ed

Active member
poprivetus said:
My brother's 2009 600 E TEC, with only 1100 miles, seized this week. No compression in one cylinder. Didn't have any prior warning, always ran great. Now he's worried that after spending quite a bit for the rebuild it won't be reliable. Hate to see him sell it. Does anybody have any history on this motor, especially following a rebuild. A reputable Ski Doo dealer is doing the work.
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2 strokes have been rebuilt and put back into service successfully for years its all about who is doing the work and did the root cause of the problem get addressed. A rebuild done right wont last if the very thing that caused the problem is overlooked and not fixed, that is where a good mechanic shines. Just because its new technology doesnt mean you will have continuing problems. I would not be afraid of a good rebuild.

I would not add adtnl oil and follow manufacturer guidelines on oil usage so as to keep the air/fuel ratio correct. There are 2 ways to lean out that ratio. One is too much air (like a seal leak) and the other is not enough fuel (like clogged carb or injecter passage or too much oil in a pre-mix).
 
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sledder10

New member
Technically adding oil to the tank/gas does lean the fuel to air ratio. However most sleds are jetted withing the margin of safety that adding oil will not cause a lean enough fuel condition to burn the piston. Keep in mind adding oil also lowers the octane slightly as well and oil lubricates but FUEL cools (in general).

Actually a well known 2 stroke motocross racing mechanic and engine builder states how you can use extra oil to displace the fuel and lower the fuel to air mixture.

From Eric Gorr's web site:

Fuel and Oil Mixture Ratios
When we talk about the "fuel" in the air-fuel mixture for a two-stroke engine, we are really talking about a mixture of fuel and oil. If you richen the pre-mix ratio (20:1 as opposed to 30:1) there is more oil and less fuel in the same volume of liquid, which effectively leans the air-fuel ratio. And this fact gives the clever tuner one more tool to use when the correct jet is not available or when none of the standard jets are exactly right. You can richen the jetting by slightly reducing the pre-mix ratio (less oil). You can lean the jetting by increasing the pre-mix ratio (more oil). The best part is that changes in the pre-mix ratio affect the jetting over the entire throttle-opening range, but the changes in ratio must be small to prevent excess wear from lack of lubricating oil or fouled plugs from too much oil.

Pre-mix oils are formulated for a fairly narrow range of pre-mix ratios. You should examine the oil bottle for the oil manufacturer's suggestion on the pre-mix ratio. All production two-stroke dirt bikes have a sticker on the rear fender suggesting that you set the pre-mix ratio to 20:1 That sticker is put there for legal purposes. Always refer to the oil manufacturer's suggestion on pre-mix ratios. In general, small-displacement engines require a richer pre-mix ratio than do large-displacement engines because smaller engines have a higher peak rpm than larger engines. The higher the engine revs, the more lubrication it requires.
 
srt20

srt20

Active member
If this is true, show me an example of an engine burning down because of to much oil leaned out the A/F ratio.

BTW 2-stroke oil is a fuel, it is designed to be burned. Yes fuel cools, because there is more of it. But if you have a heavy dose of oil, it will not explode, therefore greatly reducing your in-cylinder temps.

Bottom line is you will not burn down your engine, or even do harm by adding pre-mix oil. Im not talking about racing here, Im talking about real world everyday sled riders.

If your are splitting hairs so much that you are adjusting oil premix ratio because the next size bigger or smaller jet isnt exactly right, you arent getting any ride time on your sled anyway because your screwing around with insignificant stuff for trail riding. You would have to change your jetting for every 5* temp change, not to mention humidity changes.

This has nothing to do with real world riding. And all it will do is get people who dont know or who are just learning, bad info.

Either way, Im am seriously done with this garbage. Im gonna go start a post about team kilt using sea and snow oil.
 
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sledder10

New member
Technically speaking any 2 stroke motor that "burns down" did so because the fuel to air ratio was too lean. Now if the sled seized due to lack of oil that is another issue that cannot be solved by adding more fuel but should be obvious when you tear it down. Conversely any two stroke that burned down due to lack of fuel likely cannot be saved by adding oil to the tank. Keep in mind 99% of 2 stroke sleds come oil rich from the factory yet some still burn down due to lean fuel conditions. And adding oil to the tank only makes it leaner, albeit in very minute amounts and like I said in the previous post most are jetted fat enough to tolerate the additional affect of leaning the mixture slightly with oil. Not sure if there are any implications to adding oil to the tank on a etec but some of the manufacturers like Arctic Cat do not recommend it on fuel injected sleds. For the ETEC I would follow the manufacturers recommendations only because I am not intimately familiar with the system and how lean it might be from the factory. I would make sure before I rebuilt it that I understood if it burned down or seized from lack of oil.

Now for traditional carbureted sleds I have in fact added oil to the gas tank while I was breaking in a motor to make sure it was getting lubrication in case there were bubbles in the oil line etc. In this case I knew full well that I was jetted fat enough to tolerate the fuel displaced by the oil. If you are out on the trail and your sled is detonating or otherwise running lean adding oil to the tank is not going to fix the problem. Adding more oil will only compound the problem slightly and make the parts a little more oily when you pull them out of the motor to replace. Adding octane boost, decreasing timing or adding more or better fuel is the only fix.

For clarity sake in this thread lets first understand there is fuel rich/lean and oil rich/lean and both units need to be calibrated correctly for the motor to live.
 
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