Blown 2009 600 E TEC

[uperjim]

Don't know why these threads turn into everyone argueing. Let everyone post their comments and opinions and viewpoints and it is up to the readers to discern what they choose to believe. Every post may have valid and maybe not so valid points depending on the experience of the poster AND THE EXACT APPLICATION.

I am no expert but I am a licensed and degreed Mechanical Engineer who took 2 entire years of internal combustion theory and labs at University of Michigan and worked years at GM in fuel injection. There are many variables that go into all this and we spent allot of time thermocoupling egines and measuring thermal efficiencies, swirl patterns and varying all the inputs and outputs. Things are not so simple anymore and I am way out of date. These new engines are coming out (at least automotive) with multiple injectors and spark plugs per cylinder. Everything works great (usually) out of the factory but you get into the real world and stuff happens!

Don't get worked up when somebody posts that something failed. Get worked up when you read about multiple failures on the same sled with the same engine that fail in the same manner.

Even a post I don't agree with ---usually has some valid points that gets me to think and I encourage them all!

Generally I don't 2nd guess the factory engineers---they usually have allot more resources including money to figure things out and then they release something that they THINK will survive the masses.

Even with the GREAT SEA AND SNOW DEBATE-----you have to weigh the evidence and the mass of experiences with the potential economic savings vs the possible economic failure and make your decision on oil brand. To each his own. I have used YAMALUBE on Yamaha sleds for 25 years but I just bought a case of Sea and Snow!

 

[poprivetus]

Just got the results of the autopsy on the 600 E TEC. Appears the PTO side crank seal failed, even thought they didn't pressure test it prior to disassembly. Needs crank, bearings, seal, piston, connecting rod and jug. $2500.00 and a 30 day warranty. Hopefully he'll get some run time before the warranty expires.
I said it appears the crank seal failed because they found no other apparent reason. I'm no expert but that seems odd not to have a better diagnosis. ECM did show that coolant temp was 90 deg prior to failure. For whatever that helps.
Thanks for all the useful info. Even learned a little about pre-mix! LOL.
Sad part of the story is that this is his first sled in 30 years and it didn't make it the season. I'm liking my Xfire 800 a bit more...

 

[duramax]

One of the guys that i ride with had a 2009 600 e-tec, and he had 4400 miles on it with no problems what so ever. It did really good on gas and didn't use much oil at all. He got rid of it though and bought a 2011 yamaha vector gt.

 

[Deleted member 10829]

Was it out of warranty already? I would push the dealer to get Ski Doo to cover at least part of it. Shouldn't happen with 1,100 miles on the engine.

 

[600etec]

My buddies 600 Etec went down the same way but his was still under warranty. When the etec goes down with no warning lights it is not a fuel/lean issue it is a crank seal/ leak on the bottom end which will cause any motor to go bad. The dealer told my friend they were told about this occurrence and it will not show up on a dummy light because it comes from the bottom end.

I would encourage your friend to call BRP because I believe from what I understand this is due to a bad crank seal. And there should be no reason other than a bad seal that it fails in 1100 miles.

I have a 2010 etec with 2500 miles and it runs great!

I am quoting my own reply here... I agree about there is way to much arguing that goes on with some of these issues on this site. adding oil to gas or not...the issue here is that someones new etec when down and the person was looking for others that may have heard about this.
The reality is an etec motor/ECM monitors fuel and the octane levels and will adjust the timing and a/f ratios accordingly. These motors will go into limp mode when there is water in the fuel and other issues it senses. So, adding oil to the gas of an etec is not needed or recommended because the motor will adjust based on the fuel that is inputted in the system. Just like putting 87Octane in, it will run but change the timing curve significantly and you will lose a fair amount of horse power.

As for carbed motors there is a major issue with EPA requirements and leaning the motors out. Manufacturers are definitely reducing jet sizes to get the motor to pass the requirements which is causing more issues.

Ultimately the etec motor failures that the ECM cannot protect against is bottom end air leaks which causes a lean situation in the case and bearings will fail. This damage/failure happens prior to or During temp heat up of motor/coolant. That is why there is not a temp indicator until the issue has occurred and the damage is done. Conversely top end failures are due to lean situations which start burning hotter before the failure happens. So, when the lean state starts prior to damage the temp goes up and the light comes on. Also, The ECM starts adjusting the timing and the a/f ration and if it doe not correct it will go into limp mode to avoid damage.

This is my understanding and a little more then my 2cents worth.

Please let's try to help each other out when we experience problems versus getting into the personal battle.

going this weekend maybe get over the 3K mark this year. For me it is smiles and miles with family and friends!

 

[600etec]

Just got the results of the autopsy on the 600 E TEC. Appears the PTO side crank seal failed, even thought they didn't pressure test it prior to disassembly. Needs crank, bearings, seal, piston, connecting rod and jug. $2500.00 and a 30 day warranty. Hopefully he'll get some run time before the warranty expires.
I said it appears the crank seal failed because they found no other apparent reason. I'm no expert but that seems odd not to have a better diagnosis. ECM did show that coolant temp was 90 deg prior to failure. For whatever that helps.
Thanks for all the useful info. Even learned a little about pre-mix! LOL.
Sad part of the story is that this is his first sled in 30 years and it didn't make it the season. I'm liking my Xfire 800 a bit more...

I would have your brother contact BRP directly and push the issue. for a crank seal to go bad with low miles has to be a definite workmanship/material issue. It is not like the motor had 10K miles on it.

 

[switch07]

My buddies 09 etec went down with no warning back in December with 4500 miles on it. Seized up one side tight and when tore down dealer found the injector failed on that side. BRP warantied the whole job, less one spark plug on good side, cost him a whole $17.00. Ask your dealer about the injector.

 

[ffemt]

My buddies 09 etec went down with no warning back in December with 4500 miles on it. Seized up one side tight and when tore down dealer found the injector failed on that side. BRP warantied the whole job, less one spark plug on good side, cost him a whole $17.00. Ask your dealer about the injector.


I believe this is the type of info poprivetus was looking for in the original ????????
NOT U SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT ADD OIL TO UR GAS
NO THAT'S FALSE \\// NO THAT'S FALSE

 

[poprivetus]

Was it out of warranty already? I would push the dealer to get Ski Doo to cover at least part of it. Shouldn't happen with 1,100 miles on the engine.

He bought it from the original owner in fall 2011 with 175 miles. The original owner bought it in 2010 as a left-over. End result was a two year old sled with 175 miles and a warranty that expired prior to the season. The bargain price has been negated by the rebuild cost. Plus another grand. Lesson learned.

 

[uperjim]

Good info here and I appreciate this thread especially since I am considering an etec. 600etec--you made allot of sense with your reply and analysis.

Fact is that the off trailers do not have many options anymore. The 4s's are too heavy to bring into shaky areas and the technology of the ETEC's are such that you can't do all the work yourself anymore or fix things in the middle of nowhere. The original scenario described by poprivetus of a left over sled with only 175mi at the beginning of the season sort of confirms my suspicion of maybe some storage / gas issues. Fuel injectors have extremely tight tolerances and do not tolerate gumming, bad fuel , moisture etc very well. That coupled with ethanol content fuels that we need to use in our 2-strokes now bothers me for long term reliability. I think they are doing remarkable things with this technology but over the long haul there will be different issues than the old carbed engines.

If I owned an ETEC I would be very carefull of the gas I used and unfortunately many of the stations on the UP trail network are not big volume sellers and we don't know the turnover rate of their fuel. I would also be very carefull of storage procedures and would store my sled in a cool spot during the summer---not in a black enclosed trailer in the sun!

And I would definately use a fuel stabilizer.

I also wonder if the fact that they use very little injection oil possibly causes increased failures of the crank seals themselves----seems that the lip seals need a bit of oil to prevent wear. Only mechanics that tear many of these apart would know the answer.

I do know that in the early days of automotive fuel injection that prolonged idling did something to actually plug the very small injection orfices. I think the increased flow and swirl action at higher RPM eliminated these deposits. Direct injected diesel engines never had this issue even though they idled for long periods of time just the gas engines. I wonder if these injectors could be slightly plugging and driving the mixture lean where the ECM cannot compensate?

Anyhow---hope they get this stuff figured out as I am in the market for a new sled but i am a boondocker and my sleds stay at the cabin in the UP and I do 100% of my own maintenance so I need something I understand and can work on.

GREAT thread---thanks

 

[indy_500]

Good info here and I appreciate this thread especially since I am considering an etec. 600etec--you made allot of sense with your reply and analysis.

Fact is that the off trailers do not have many options anymore. The 4s's are too heavy to bring into shaky areas and the technology of the ETEC's are such that you can't do all the work yourself anymore or fix things in the middle of nowhere. The original scenario described by poprivetus of a left over sled with only 175mi at the beginning of the season sort of confirms my suspicion of maybe some storage / gas issues. Fuel injectors have extremely tight tolerances and do not tolerate gumming, bad fuel , moisture etc very well. That coupled with ethanol content fuels that we need to use in our 2-strokes now bothers me for long term reliability. I think they are doing remarkable things with this technology but over the long haul there will be different issues than the old carbed engines.

If I owned an ETEC I would be very carefull of the gas I used and unfortunately many of the stations on the UP trail network are not big volume sellers and we don't know the turnover rate of their fuel. I would also be very carefull of storage procedures and would store my sled in a cool spot during the summer---not in a black enclosed trailer in the sun!

And I would definately use a fuel stabilizer.

I also wonder if the fact that they use very little injection oil possibly causes increased failures of the crank seals themselves----seems that the lip seals need a bit of oil to prevent wear. Only mechanics that tear many of these apart would know the answer.

I do know that in the early days of automotive fuel injection that prolonged idling did something to actually plug the very small injection orfices. I think the increased flow and swirl action at higher RPM eliminated these deposits. Direct injected diesel engines never had this issue even though they idled for long periods of time just the gas engines. I wonder if these injectors could be slightly plugging and driving the mixture lean where the ECM cannot compensate?

Anyhow---hope they get this stuff figured out as I am in the market for a new sled but i am a boondocker and my sleds stay at the cabin in the UP and I do 100% of my own maintenance so I need something I understand and can work on.

GREAT thread---thanks

Ski doo still made that summit 600 sport in 2011. It's carbed, and is probably pretty easy to work on. Don't know how long/big you're looking for, but I like the idea of brands still making good ole carbed sleds that WILL last.

 

[uperjim]

poprivetus---Ha I was just on Ski-doos site checking out the 2012 Summit sport! Yes that caught my eye. I prefer a 137 track for the UP and I like the Freestyle with the 1.75 lug but the Freestyle is the ETEK and more $! I find that there are times in the UP where a 2"+ lug does not get enough snow and lubrication. Also the 137 is more manueverable in the trees and exploring. I have riden at Togwotee and you need the longer track and lug out there but definately overkill for the Eastern UP!

Oh well---may still get the Summit sport with the 6oo carb and if I ever need a new track just drop the lug size then. I typically get 10 years out of a track since I only ride in great conditions. My son has the mountain Phazer and that is I believe a 144 2"+ lug track and he gets by. I really want the Tundra Sport with the 600 carb engine but the Tundra lineup is the same as last year. My wife has the 550F Renegade and that struggles to get on top of the really deep snow and I need a trail breaker with a bit more power.

I guess I better just buy a carbed sled now ---I keep thinking this will be the last year you will see them.

Thanks again for the thread!

 

[uperjim]

oops---I guess Indy 500 made the summit suggestion---Thanks

 

[indy_500]

oops---I guess Indy 500 made the summit suggestion---Thanks

No problem, this will probably be the last year of the 600 carb, EPA regulations are set to take place for 2012. The minute the Ski-doo lineup was released the summit sport caught my eye. I wish poo still made more carbed sleds/manufacturers were allowed to! DARN EPA! Snowmobile contribute like what, .01% to the world's pollution? What diff does it make if we get 8 mpg like me? lol

 

[600etec]

poprivetus---Ha I was just on Ski-doos site checking out the 2012 Summit sport! Yes that caught my eye. I prefer a 137 track for the UP and I like the Freestyle with the 1.75 lug but the Freestyle is the ETEK and more $! I find that there are times in the UP where a 2"+ lug does not get enough snow and lubrication. Also the 137 is more manueverable in the trees and exploring. I have riden at Togwotee and you need the longer track and lug out there but definately overkill for the Eastern UP!

Oh well---may still get the Summit sport with the 6oo carb and if I ever need a new track just drop the lug size then. I typically get 10 years out of a track since I only ride in great conditions. My son has the mountain Phazer and that is I believe a 144 2"+ lug track and he gets by. I really want the Tundra Sport with the 600 carb engine but the Tundra lineup is the same as last year. My wife has the 550F Renegade and that struggles to get on top of the really deep snow and I need a trail breaker with a bit more power.

I guess I better just buy a carbed sled now ---I keep thinking this will be the last year you will see them.

Thanks again for the thread!

Uperjim I own a 2010 Renegade 600 etec I bought last summer as a leftover new from a dealer. I have put 2400 miles on this sled without a problem. The power band is great and love it in the deep snow. What is great is the etec motor has a much lower clutch engagement which allows you to control the track spin in deep snow when starting out. Great sled with awwwwwwwesome power. this sled runs with my buddies 09 800 IQ(121 track) up to 80+mph. I would not shy away from the etec the failures of this motor a very very few and far between. New carb motors are having the issues due to the leaner settings to meet EPA regs.

Also does the freestyle come with an etec? The freestyle is the low cost economic sled(not a rev XP chassis) that only had the fan motor in it and I did not think they made it anymore.

 

[uperjim]

600etec---I guess I have been looking at too many sleds! You are right it was the Backcountry not the Freestyle that had the 600 Etec and the 137", 1.75 lugged track.
I appreciate your comments about the clutch engagement RPM---that is huge for the backwoods guys.
Wish they had the Tundra with a 600 non 4 stroke---that would be ideal for the UP. Pogo sticks are certainly dated but I don't know how many times I have been boondocking with an old Yamaha and with stumps like we have in the yoop the pogo sticks avoid damage. For trails they are definately way outdated. Mountain boondocking is definately way different than UP boon docking and they just don't make a good sled for the UP.

At least with carbs we have an option of richening things up----although the ETEC's should adjust on their own ----all things equal!

Decisions decisions!

 

[snow_monkey]

Good info here and I appreciate this thread especially since I am considering an etec. 600etec--you made allot of sense with your reply and analysis.

Fact is that the off trailers do not have many options anymore. The 4s's are too heavy to bring into shaky areas and the technology of the ETEC's are such that you can't do all the work yourself anymore or fix things in the middle of nowhere. The original scenario described by poprivetus of a left over sled with only 175mi at the beginning of the season sort of confirms my suspicion of maybe some storage / gas issues. Fuel injectors have extremely tight tolerances and do not tolerate gumming, bad fuel , moisture etc very well. That coupled with ethanol content fuels that we need to use in our 2-strokes now bothers me for long term reliability. I think they are doing remarkable things with this technology but over the long haul there will be different issues than the old carbed engines.

If I owned an ETEC I would be very carefull of the gas I used and unfortunately many of the stations on the UP trail network are not big volume sellers and we don't know the turnover rate of their fuel. I would also be very carefull of storage procedures and would store my sled in a cool spot during the summer---not in a black enclosed trailer in the sun!

And I would definately use a fuel stabilizer.

I also wonder if the fact that they use very little injection oil possibly causes increased failures of the crank seals themselves----seems that the lip seals need a bit of oil to prevent wear. Only mechanics that tear many of these apart would know the answer.

I do know that in the early days of automotive fuel injection that prolonged idling did something to actually plug the very small injection orfices. I think the increased flow and swirl action at higher RPM eliminated these deposits. Direct injected diesel engines never had this issue even though they idled for long periods of time just the gas engines. I wonder if these injectors could be slightly plugging and driving the mixture lean where the ECM cannot compensate?

Anyhow---hope they get this stuff figured out as I am in the market for a new sled but i am a boondocker and my sleds stay at the cabin in the UP and I do 100% of my own maintenance so I need something I understand and can work on.

GREAT thread---thanks

I have been filtering my fuel all season just to be safe. Only fresh clean 93 octane goes in my girl and she has not talked back yet.

 

[cfd429]

Ok what if I open the carb slide up a bit to help cool. Sorry could'nt resist, I agree completely the oil wont hurt!

 

[lenny]

Mountain boondocking is definately way different than UP boon docking and they just don't make a good sled for the UP.


cat's crossfire is an incredible machine for the UP. I rode my buddies summit146 etek and it's a beautiful machine but the xfire really shines in the slow maneuvering in the trees, much better balanced and neutral feel. The doo is a fine machine and I'd love to have one but from experience riding the summit 146 and the xfire stretched to a 144, it kicks major butt. I know this thread is about the doo etck but I just rode one this last weekend and thought it was worth mentioning

 

[snow_monkey]

Mountain boondocking is definately way different than UP boon docking and they just don't make a good sled for the UP.


cat's crossfire is an incredible machine for the UP. I rode my buddies summit146 etek and it's a beautiful machine but the xfire really shines in the slow maneuvering in the trees, much better balanced and neutral feel. The doo is a fine machine and I'd love to have one but from experience riding the summit 146 and the xfire stretched to a 144, it kicks major butt. I know this thread is about the doo etck but I just rode one this last weekend and thought it was worth mentioning

X'2 on the crossfire.