Building / Shop advice

[dfattack]

I've been waiting almost ten years to build this for all the toys so I could do it the "right way" and not cut any corners. I think I'm ready now and am starting to plan ahead for construction possibly next spring/summer. I've already heard from several people to build bigger than what you think you need since you fill it up quickly. I would like to hear from anyone who has built one already or has a shop/garage and could share some tips as to what I should include that maybe I haven't thought of yet.

I will be storing several boats, ATV's, snowmobiles and my 28' trailer. I would like to have a lift for the ATV's and sleds and have been told to have a steel beam above the section where the lift will be to hoist up the sled or ATV if necessary.

Any other advice would be appreciated.

 

[jd]

Heated? If so, in-floor heat. Can keep it at 60 while in there and because your feet are warm, it feels like 68. Plus any melted snow will evaporate overnight, allowing for a nice dry shop most of the time!
Use spray foam insulation if you can. More expensive up front, but is the best!
Plan to wash vehicles? A drain for sure, but do the pipe work after inspected and before the pour. Leave the top of the pipe about 1/8" below the top of the slab elevation. Wrap around 3/4" of cardboard around the top of the drain pipe. Cover the top of the pipe with duck tape or similar. Pour the floor, but leave the pipe covered until the final inspection is done. Then use a concrete chisel to break through the 1/8" layer of concrete covering the drain. Remove the cardboard and then slip the drain fitting on top. Nice way to avoid any hassle with the inspectors with drains. Most areas do not let it just go into the ground, inspectors want to see an oil separator and then go to a septic. $$$
Very true statement about making it bigger than you think you will need. They do fill up VERY fast! One way to combat this is to make your walls 12' or even 14' tall. Then you can add storage below the ceiling for smaller and lighter things. Most folks only think about storage space on the ground. I am building shelves in my shop with 12' ceilings and have lots more space and is not in the way of the big stuff!
Put tons of electrical outlets in. Way more than you think you will need. You may never use all, but a PITA to try and add them later. Same for lighting. More is better, you can have groupings to give you different light conditions, or light specific areas.
Probably a no-brainer, but metal roof with at least a 5/12 pitch. Will shed the snow on its own. Shoveling barn roofs is no fun and expensive to pay to have done!
Good luck!

 

[heckler56]

Biggest thing in my book is consider how you will load items in. Ex: my pontoon is on a tandem axle trailer all in over 26’ of the 40’ length. The kicker is tandem axles do not like to pivot very well so it can be a number of rolling back and forths to snug it up to an outside wall. I did put in a 18’ door on a 30’ width so that helps compared to going with a more standard width door.. My rv is 25’ with duallys so it can be some back and forth to snug against the opposite wall to the pontoon. Unfortunately my snowmobile trailer and flatbed trailers lined up are 1’ longer than the 40’ length. My 30x40 was the max I could build in my township or I would have bumped it a few feet.
if you do a lift (which I have thought of also), consider a car lift. It can give you the ability to put something on it and store something under it.

 

[Rupp Collector]

Mine is 32'x48' w/12' sidewalls. 6"x6" poles so the walls are 8" thick for great insulation. I built it before cellulose spray in foam was being used.
I have blown in insulation throughout. I heat it with one ceiling mounted radiant tube that does fabulous. There are three floor drains, air line around entire perimeter numerous drop-down power lines with boxes (eliminates long extension cords). I have one hydraulic lift tube in the work area with two adapters, one for sleds & one for the 4 wheelers and SxS's. I installed two commercial ceiling exhaust fans for sucking fumes and smoke out.

 

[goofy600]

Put the biggest garage door in you can as opposed to 2 doors. 16, 18, or even 20’ if you want to put in an automotive style lift in you will want the concrete floor thicker in that area.

 

[dfattack]

Wow! quick responses. All excellent advice.

I realized I should have put more info than what I did in the first post.

120' X 60'

16' high walls.

in floor heat

14' X 14' overhead door at each end

Continuous floor drains down the entire isle from overhead door to overhead door. Both of my garages at my house which is 1/2 mile down the road have same floor drains without triple basins. House in Illinois has it since I was required by the building department. Now I can sell without being concerned I will have to fix. They do cost a little up front but if all you do is wash vehicles and your floor then there is no maintenance. Every other time I pump out my septic tank I have the truck run a hose into the triple basins to clean them out.

I have a insulator who will spray foam 1.5" - 2" in the 2X8 exterior walls then add batt insulation on top of that along with Poly.

Will have storage trusses in attic

Haven't decided on roof material yet but will be pitched as JD suggested. Was hoping for metal but I've had some try to steer me away from that. Not just because of cost but if you don't use the right type of metal you are up on it caulking all the screw holes. Standing seam is the way to go but roofer trying to talk me into steel shingles.

totally agree on the outlets and also was told to have air lines in various places as well.

 

[mrbb]

I would add more outlets than you think you will need, including a few 220 volt one's if you ever weld or use larger power items
and I am a big fan of having the auto roll up air lines and extensions cords added in several places

on a 120x60 building, I would add more garage doors, as its nice to have more ways to get things in and out and not have to mover other things that will get in the way!
I would also consider a having a 20 ft wide door too!
Not sure what thickness of concrete your doing either, but I would for sure make all the garage door entrances have a larger thickness section to be able to handle the added stress in them area's
all the more so if you ever plan to use building for heavier items(skid steers tractors and so on)
as for building, I would also have a 2 ft or so over hang all around it, to keep water and snow away from building as best you can
as for lighting, with so many great LED's out there now, having the adjustable one's
where you can adjust amount of power to them as well as having them so you can light up sections of building as opposed to whole thing, is a nice option too !

 

[mrbb]

OH< and not sure if your planning to have water running inside building, if possible that's a GREAT addition to have, all the more so HOT water too boot ! the new small instant hot water units can make that way easier now than ever for less &&

even if not adding now, at least run the water lines and have them capped off, so down the road it can be added!
same with if adding a bathroom, time to run pipes is before concrete gets poured!

 

[G]

I am going to rub here a little. I built a 40 by 72. Put in lots of outlets and air lines throughout. Figured I had the world by the short hairs. But now I hardly use the air or the outlets. The new battery tools have made corded tools obsolete. They are lighter and portable. I can't remember the last time I bought a corded power tool. My air wrenches haven't been used since I don't know when. The only thing I use the air for is to blow things off. Also if you are going to go with a higher sidewall why not go all the way to 16? Then you can have a loft where you won't hit your head. Insulation is your friend. Use lots and start with the spray foam as others have stated. You will never regret a big door. The bigger the better. Also if you like to replace your hot water heater every 3 years by all means run out and get the no tank quick heater. The orifices are small and they clog up with the impurities in the water and then they don't work anymore. Just go with a traditional tank heater. Been there done that. Quick heaters are great when they are new. But they just don't live very long. And yes you need a drain floor. And if I were you I would double the recommended slope. Too many drains on top of hills. As far as floor heat I would think twice about floor heat throughout. You don't need floor heat underneath stored boats. You only need it where you are going to be working. The new air to air heaters are up to 97 percent efficient. If you are properly insulated your heating costs will be less with air to air than with floor heat. I have both. I know. Just some thoughts.

 

[G]

Also nobody around here is putting in overhead beams for lifting. The new floor lifts are taking over. Simple and cheap. And if they are just for sleds and ATVs you can move them around which is handy.

 

[chunk06]

120 X 60 ? are you going to partition a shop off that? Unless I was a farmer or excavator or something like that i would rather have it half heated shop half storage but that's just me. Some of the Townships around me are crackig down on the big buildings anymore unless you are using them for AG use, even with decent acreage. Nice free country we live in lol. Sounds like a nice shop, I have the same thing in min when I find the right property. Even my wife is on board for big shop smaller house.

 

[mrbb]

I can add a little bit of info on tankless heaters as have been following them for a few yrs!
from all I have learned is, life of thankless water heaters really comes down to quality of water and how well you upkeep them!
don't do annual cleanings/services on them, and they WON"T last, BUT if you do?? they can last 10+ yrs!

adding water softeners and cleaning ONCE a yr will extend there life ten fold!
anyone that installs them will tell you this if there honest, a once a yr service call from MY area plumbers runs about 75-100 bucks, and folks that have the NEW tankless heaters are going 10+ yrs now problem free, I know several personally, and my friend that is a plumber, highjly recommend s then=m NOW< for yrs he talked me out of getting one!!, os not like he's pushing them!

I know this, as I been following them as at my hunting camp, the water there EATS a basic water heater , and the tank there is in a place its a royal pain in the ass to replace (and no better place to put it), and we have to replace it every 3 yrs SUCKS, all the more so since price of water heaters have doubled or more for the size we use(went from 300 to 750 bucks for a a same tank now)
so our next unit will be a propane tankless heater and will have a service cleaning done once a yr!

and I also second the idea of having the building set up so you only have to heat a section at a time, rather than the whole unit
they do sell clear insulated like plastic curtains, that do work pretty well for this, not 100% dividers, but will lower heating costs

and also agree having a full 16 ft ceiling will all for more storage options
or even going 20 LOL
then you can add a upstairs living quarters or offices or??
OR maybe can go slightly smaller on the footprint of building , and use upstairs for storage of some things, not sure on costs , but would be something to consider and ask builder about, if it interest you!

 

[dfattack]

OH< and not sure if your planning to have water running inside building, if possible that's a GREAT addition to have, all the more so HOT water too boot ! the new small instant hot water units can make that way easier now than ever for less &&

even if not adding now, at least run the water lines and have them capped off, so down the road it can be added!
same with if adding a bathroom, time to run pipes is before concrete gets poured!

All good points. Yes, I will have water and a Rinnai Tankless water heater. I have them already at the business and they have been reliable so far but need an annual cleaning as a preventative.

I am curious about something and honestly that's why I even posted this thread to begin with. the wider door suggestion interests me. I have a friend who has a 14' X 14' door and anything he's wanted to bring in hasn't been a problem. Can you give me some examples of what I would need the 20' wide door for?

 

[dfattack]

I am going to rub here a little. I built a 40 by 72. Put in lots of outlets and air lines throughout. Figured I had the world by the short hairs. But now I hardly use the air or the outlets. The new battery tools have made corded tools obsolete. They are lighter and portable. I can't remember the last time I bought a corded power tool. My air wrenches haven't been used since I don't know when. The only thing I use the air for is to blow things off. Also if you are going to go with a higher sidewall why not go all the way to 16? Then you can have a loft where you won't hit your head. Insulation is your friend. Use lots and start with the spray foam as others have stated. You will never regret a big door. The bigger the better. Also if you like to replace your hot water heater every 3 years by all means run out and get the no tank quick heater. The orifices are small and they clog up with the impurities in the water and then they don't work anymore. Just go with a traditional tank heater. Been there done that. Quick heaters are great when they are new. But they just don't live very long. And yes you need a drain floor. And if I were you I would double the recommended slope. Too many drains on top of hills. As far as floor heat I would think twice about floor heat throughout. You don't need floor heat underneath stored boats. You only need it where you are going to be working. The new air to air heaters are up to 97 percent efficient. If you are properly insulated your heating costs will be less with air to air than with floor heat. I have both. I know. Just some thoughts.

I will have 16' walls.

On the long end of the building which I will call the aisle there will be floor drains running the length with 1/4"/ft pitch. This pitch has worked very well for me in my garages at home. The rest of the area which I call the bays where the toys will stay will be 1/8"/ft towards the aisle.

 

[dfattack]

I can add a little bit of info on tankless heaters as have been following them for a few yrs!
from all I have learned is, life of thankless water heaters really comes down to quality of water and how well you upkeep them!
don't do annual cleanings/services on them, and they WON"T last, BUT if you do?? they can last 10+ yrs!

adding water softeners and cleaning ONCE a yr will extend there life ten fold!
anyone that installs them will tell you this if there honest, a once a yr service call from MY area plumbers runs about 75-100 bucks, and folks that have the NEW tankless heaters are going 10+ yrs now problem free, I know several personally, and my friend that is a plumber, highjly recommend s then=m NOW< for yrs he talked me out of getting one!!, os not like he's pushing them!

I know this, as I been following them as at my hunting camp, the water there EATS a basic water heater , and the tank there is in a place its a royal pain in the ass to replace (and no better place to put it), and we have to replace it every 3 yrs SUCKS, all the more so since price of water heaters have doubled or more for the size we use(went from 300 to 750 bucks for a a same tank now)
so our next unit will be a propane tankless heater and will have a service cleaning done once a yr!

and I also second the idea of having the building set up so you only have to heat a section at a time, rather than the whole unit
they do sell clear insulated like plastic curtains, that do work pretty well for this, not 100% dividers, but will lower heating costs

and also agree having a full 16 ft ceiling will all for more storage options
or even going 20 LOL
then you can add a upstairs living quarters or offices or??
OR maybe can go slightly smaller on the footprint of building , and use upstairs for storage of some things, not sure on costs , but would be something to consider and ask builder about, if it interest you!

Thanks for the input. I wasn't going to get into this but since you brought it up in more detail. I currently have 16 Rinnai CU199iN tankless water heaters. 2 at each location since I cannot afford to be down without hot water or I have to shut down. if one goes down I can valve the one off then continue to operate. This has saved me once in the last 2 years. Yes, I soften my water and do the annual maintenance. So far only issue I had was due to faulty piping and setup from my previous plumber. Once I started using a factory authorized installer the issues went away.

I use an excellent water treatment company in Powers MI that will set me up with whatever I need to condition the water appropriately so I'm good with the water.

I can see some suggesting to section off the building for heat and quite honestly may still do that, but what I have experienced is the in-floor heat is so even and efficient I'm not seeing the benefit. I use NTI modulating boilers and they basically run around 10-20% capacity most of the time. I don't think I've seen them run over 50% capacity for any length of time. I don't sit and watch them but every time I walk past they are at such a low output with outdoor reset function and 10:1 turn down feature. I think I have the heat and water dialed in.

Thanks everyone for the input. The overhead door size is interesting to me as well as outlets/airline locations. I see Grub's point and am also hearing other points of view so the conversation is great.

 

[euphoric1]

dfattack, as far as heat goes a good friend of mine built a shop and put those tube type radiant heaters in that mount on the ceiling, now you don't have air movement from them but the air is comfortable and every surface, tool, etc... is warm to the touch. Something to consider rather than floor heat.
I see you have two 22 Doo's listed did you get your new sleds I take it?

 

[dfattack]

dfattack, as far as heat goes a good friend of mine built a shop and put those tube type radiant heaters in that mount on the ceiling, now you don't have air movement from them but the air is comfortable and every surface, tool, etc... is warm to the touch. Something to consider rather than floor heat.
I see you have two 22 Doo's listed did you get your new sleds I take it?

Thank you for the comment. I'm kinda set on infloor and even the boiler. Love the NTI's and the setup interface.

No, don't have them yet...just planning ahead. the Mach is supposed to be in this month. GT in January. I will wait obviously and I'm keeping my 2012 Apex. It's my favorite sled to date and will ride that until the new sleds come in. Last winter I put a set of stage 4 elka's on the Apex and what a difference in the ride and handling so in some respects it's kinda new to me too. With the shop size I will have plenty of room to keep both.

 

[mrbb]

I agree the floor is where you want the heat, as it rises,, but the taller the ceilings, the more heat it takes to get there and stay there!
which IMO< I still sort of thing, if you had sections without heat , or ability to turn on sections and or off, that might still lower overall costs , but sounds like you have this covered

I will add another idea on the building(I have tons of farmer friends and shop owner friends so get in a lot of buildings)
my one friend has a 40-80 building or so size, and it is all 20 ceiling,
3 garage doors, one on each end like you mentioned and one on one side
on the one end door however, he added a roof covering, I am thinking is about 25 ft long and about 20 ft wide(had 16 ft wide garage door where its at) and 20+ ft tall
he had this door set up so its at a slight up hill slope, and with the roof covering over things, this way he uses that door to wash off equipment, and the the slope helps drain all water away from building, things stay under cover in case he wants to park them outside till they dry, or even when raining or snowing, he can park and load things!
its also a nice place for him to weld outside and or do other things near the building without having to be in the building to ,. keep fumes and such outside! or just the inside of the shop cleaner!

so I found that a nice option to have, if you have the space and extra $$

and I also HIGHLY recommend you put in poles at all garage door entrances to prevent anyone from accidentally backing into like these , , they earn there keep really fast!

 

[favoritos]

Sounds like a fun project with the planning of a new shop.
I am not real clear on the intended use of the building. That is a large shop and I'm guessing you will get plenty of requests for help on bigger equipment.
Floor heat is hard to beat. The ideas about adding lifts are great. Keep in mind that most of them need anchors. That takes planning when you do the floor heat. They are also isolated to the location. Overhead lifts are awesome when they are done right. If you go that route, go with enough capacity to do more than you anticipate. It's big bucks to go full length with a cross to cover the entire building, but you will be done. I'd also try to keep the winch system simple. I've dealt with overheads that are worthless because of some sticky switch. One thing to also keep in mind with overhead is the height limitation. The sidewalls may seem awful tall now, but the lift height is considerably less.
Questions about door size are relevant too. Go with one big door that seals well. Doesn't matter if it is slow because you won't open it every day. put in a second door that is big enough for most normal projects. That is the door you will use the most and it needs to work easily and efficiently.

With the larger shop size, you will be tempted to use it to thaw off equipment a lot. Those drains should be easy to clean. I'm talking about shovel width flat pan bottoms. The idea of running the full length is cool, but you also need to clean the entire drain. You will be amazed at how much stuff accumulates in those drains. They also need heavy duty grating with a shop that big. (It will be tempting to drive in big equipment.) Cleaning the drain means removing the grating.
I talk about the drains a lot because they also hold water with all the junk. Manage the water. It's hard on equipment and buildings. I have one work area with small drain inlets and separate sediment collection that works fairly well.

I generally take a long term lazy/efficiency approach to planning. It might be some extra work to do it right in the first place, but it saves me work every day down the road. That is a big deal in the end. Run bigger conduit when you do the electric so you can add circuits where you use them down the road. My goal with outlets is to never need an extension cord laying across the floor. I put in a lot of outlets with alternating circuits. It's common to have a couple of big items running at the same time. I also like to run switched circuits on items that get used often. It's convenient to tuck away dust collection and use a wall switch to turn on the equipment.
I'm also a big fan of making everything easy to clean. Work benches are generally mounted to the wall so I can sweep or blow debris away. Floors are smooth enough to skim sweep and I also install floor inlets for dust extraction.

It might also be nice to make a separate office/lounge/bath area with it's own zone heat. Workshops don't really need to be that warm. Toilets and tushies like to be warm. Save money on heating the big space.

 

[G]

X2 on the poles to protect your doors. Doors are expensive and easy to tweak. On that note my big door is insulated and is three inches thick. You can get cheaper doors but I have never regretted my choice this way.
As far as water heaters out water sucks here. That is why the tankless are such a pain. But if you have to hire someone every year to service them and then also have a water softener and feed that too how much money and convenience are you saving? I don't know. Lots of options.

One thing I have noticed through the years is that toys like boats last a lot longer in a controlled environment rather than just leaving them outside. Things like vinyl and even paint and tires look like new if you clean everything up good before you put it away. It costs money to build a nice big heated shop/storage but there are many benefits.