With the advent of mass lay off's in the automotive industry which other manufacturers are predicted to follow suit, and the cut back of production of vehicle models, and the shift towards autonomous and battery powered vehicles, has any one given any thought to what kind of major changes may be coming to this industry, not only to snowmobiles them selves but the future of what we will need to haul these toys. It will take a long time until the fuel aspirated vehicles are replaced by battery powered and or autonomous vehicles, but what of the vehicles needed to tow trailers, what will happen to the cost of fuels, will they rise or fall because of the lack of demand, look at what a truck or vehicle that is capable of towing costs today... how much 10 years down the road. I know these are just what if's, and looking a ways down the road, but change is definitely coming and was curious if anyone has any thoughts, opinions or predictions as to how its going to change, and how or if we will be able to afford the change and what it will do to the sport as a whole.
Cost of the sport as whole
- Thread starter euphoric1
- Start date
You are getting way ahead of yourself electric autos just aren’t that advanced yet. Certainly nothing I care to purchase anytime soon. We all know sedans aren’t popular in the USA and Americans love their SUVs and pickup trucks. I don’t see any auto OEM positioning to kill the golden goose at this time or being market driven to move away from internal combustion engines. The demise of the internal combustion engine is Mark Twainish the news of my death has been greatly exaggerated! �� lol
SledTL
Active member
I think that ICE engines will go away someday but they have a hill to climb. Until electric can recharge and have exactly the same access that gas has right now anywhere in the country, then it will be a thing. Also make it be an economy scale with no "luxury" BS that it all is right now. Yes there is the people who could afford a tesla over a f250 platinum, but you are really shafting the person who drive a '95 Pontiac sunfire. Guy posted on a tesla forum that he hardly made it to his cabin from Twin Cities to Duluth towing a trailer in the winter going 60 mph. Had to also unhook the trailer at the charging station just to get in. Already proven that we can make plastics and other things from plant based oils on that side of things.
whitedust, you are exactly right, and probably wont see the disappearance if internal combustion any time soon or maybe not in my lifetime (hope not anyways) but the $$$ of the sport continues to rise, hence the saying "you wanna play you got to pay" I guess maybe I I should have worded it as with the rising costs of everything from the toy to the hauler how do people think this is going to affect the sport or the ability for people be able to continue to or want to participate in it. The automotive side of post was a what if, there are many other variables like weather, chasing snow. Just wonder how many will want to continue to "pay if you want to play"
My Magic 8 Ball says we'll see the end of snowmobiling as we know it before the demise of the Internal Combustion engine. I believe access to a trail system in the future will be prohibitive as urban sprawl continues. Couple that with the reliance on fewer volunteers that continue to age and I don't see it as sustainable.
Here's what I would expect to see when all of us are long gone from here. Winter Resorts similar to downhill skiing with enough acreage to provide a localized trail system, maybe hill climbs too. Most likely rentals for use unless on a rare occasion you still own one. Doesn't sound like as much fun but people will adapt like they always have. As for public lands, I think we'll see more and more restrictions from the "save the planet" crowd.
As for the Internal Combustion engines, frankly I think they'll be around for as long as the oil holds out. Probably some kind of "assisted" engine that only uses gasoline at highway speeds or when accelerating before switching over to something else.
Here's what I would expect to see when all of us are long gone from here. Winter Resorts similar to downhill skiing with enough acreage to provide a localized trail system, maybe hill climbs too. Most likely rentals for use unless on a rare occasion you still own one. Doesn't sound like as much fun but people will adapt like they always have. As for public lands, I think we'll see more and more restrictions from the "save the planet" crowd.
As for the Internal Combustion engines, frankly I think they'll be around for as long as the oil holds out. Probably some kind of "assisted" engine that only uses gasoline at highway speeds or when accelerating before switching over to something else.
I know you and I like the best in technology but my son in law bought a 2001 SRX wrenched a bit on it bought a used 1 up trailer and did just fine on a 250 mile day trip. Sled and trailer investment a whooping $1,500. This woke me up that one doesn’t have to spend a small fortune to ride snowmobiles. On any given weekend many peeps in Eagle River area riding old Indy Polaris legacy sleds do just fine. You want state of the art trucks and sleds you have to open your wallet. The largest threat to snowmobiling is the lack of young volunteers to take over the clubs from the aging boomers.
This is easing away from the OP's initial question of cost of the sport, but I have been thinking more and more about the future of the sport. Kinda important to this site. 
Anyway, when I was introduced to snowmobiling as a young lad in the mid 70's, sleds were fairly inexpensive and almost disposable, a lot like the autos of the 70's. Folks that lived outside of areas that had consistent snow (basically south of a line from around Brainerd to Rhinelander to Escanaba and then much of lower MI outside of the LES belts of NWL MI) did not have to sacrifice as much financially to get into the activity then as they do now. As a result, there were much more households that owned snowmobiles- even though they might only get to use them once or twice in a season. They were perfectly content to use the sleds mostly locally, hopping around in 10-20 mile trips. Occasionally, a trip up north was made specifically to snowmobile, or perhaps folks kept these sleds at their vacation home up north and really only used them there.
Fast forward to the 80's and 90's and sleds started to become more technologically advanced. More comfortable to ride for longer periods of time. More reliable to ride for longer periods of time and also more expensive. This cause folks to feel like they should get the most from their investment, which resulted in more trips up north to where the snow was. Folks still rode near home, but just not as often.
Jump ahead to the current day and sleds are enormously expensive, highly advanced technical machines. Very few that buy them buy, do so to just putz around their local neighborhood when there is snow on the ground. They want to maximize their investment by traveling to where there is consistently good snow and a trail network which will allow them to travel great distances (including across multiple states in one trip) in a 2-3 day period.
This has put more and more pressure on the trail systems in the north, but also been good for locales/businesses that have the reliable snow season after season.
Unless manufacturers figure out how to make reliable, but low-cost sleds, families will be dropping out of the sport more and more and the trend towards groups of 3-8 friends all having sleds and planning trips to areas considerably far away from where they live will grow.
Down the road, I can see a lot of the trail systems in the central Midwest going away. It will just not make sense to go through the trouble to get easements, sign, maintain and try and keep landowners happy. The focus will shift to the areas that receive reliable snow (including the mountains). In order to survive, they will need to go from being grassroots type clubs to organized "businesses" that are 100 percent responsible for everything that needs to happen to have safe and fun trails to ride. These "businesses" (I use quotes because many may be non-for profit) will be supported by the local businesses that receive money from the snowmobile tourism.
I doubt that this will happen in a quick manner, rather more like a slow crawl. Everyone will have their own opinion if this is a positive direction or not. I also do not think that there is a single demographic to blame. From an owners standpoint, who does not want a better sled to ride? Even if it means an increase in price. We did not go from new sleds costing $1500 to $15,000 in a few years, it took 30-40 years to do that. From a manufacturers standpoint, they were only trying to follow where the trends in the activity were going. That is their goal.
In my opinion, snowmobiling has always been a "nitch" activity. Perhaps almost mainstream like boating is now back in the haydays of the 70's, but it has never been a mainstream activity among the general public. If the trend continues, it will become more and more of a nitch sport. The number of sled owners dropping, as well as the amount of trail systems. Those systems that get reliable snow will figure out ways to do things better than they are now and will become the place where 85-90% of the snowmobiling is done. The sleds will continue to get more and more advanced and more expensive, but the cost increase will slow like the auto industry did in the past 5-7 years.
So what do you all think? No way, no how, or "Hey that goofy looking guy in the corner might be onto something"?
-John
Anyway, when I was introduced to snowmobiling as a young lad in the mid 70's, sleds were fairly inexpensive and almost disposable, a lot like the autos of the 70's. Folks that lived outside of areas that had consistent snow (basically south of a line from around Brainerd to Rhinelander to Escanaba and then much of lower MI outside of the LES belts of NWL MI) did not have to sacrifice as much financially to get into the activity then as they do now. As a result, there were much more households that owned snowmobiles- even though they might only get to use them once or twice in a season. They were perfectly content to use the sleds mostly locally, hopping around in 10-20 mile trips. Occasionally, a trip up north was made specifically to snowmobile, or perhaps folks kept these sleds at their vacation home up north and really only used them there.
Fast forward to the 80's and 90's and sleds started to become more technologically advanced. More comfortable to ride for longer periods of time. More reliable to ride for longer periods of time and also more expensive. This cause folks to feel like they should get the most from their investment, which resulted in more trips up north to where the snow was. Folks still rode near home, but just not as often.
Jump ahead to the current day and sleds are enormously expensive, highly advanced technical machines. Very few that buy them buy, do so to just putz around their local neighborhood when there is snow on the ground. They want to maximize their investment by traveling to where there is consistently good snow and a trail network which will allow them to travel great distances (including across multiple states in one trip) in a 2-3 day period.
This has put more and more pressure on the trail systems in the north, but also been good for locales/businesses that have the reliable snow season after season.
Unless manufacturers figure out how to make reliable, but low-cost sleds, families will be dropping out of the sport more and more and the trend towards groups of 3-8 friends all having sleds and planning trips to areas considerably far away from where they live will grow.
Down the road, I can see a lot of the trail systems in the central Midwest going away. It will just not make sense to go through the trouble to get easements, sign, maintain and try and keep landowners happy. The focus will shift to the areas that receive reliable snow (including the mountains). In order to survive, they will need to go from being grassroots type clubs to organized "businesses" that are 100 percent responsible for everything that needs to happen to have safe and fun trails to ride. These "businesses" (I use quotes because many may be non-for profit) will be supported by the local businesses that receive money from the snowmobile tourism.
I doubt that this will happen in a quick manner, rather more like a slow crawl. Everyone will have their own opinion if this is a positive direction or not. I also do not think that there is a single demographic to blame. From an owners standpoint, who does not want a better sled to ride? Even if it means an increase in price. We did not go from new sleds costing $1500 to $15,000 in a few years, it took 30-40 years to do that. From a manufacturers standpoint, they were only trying to follow where the trends in the activity were going. That is their goal.
In my opinion, snowmobiling has always been a "nitch" activity. Perhaps almost mainstream like boating is now back in the haydays of the 70's, but it has never been a mainstream activity among the general public. If the trend continues, it will become more and more of a nitch sport. The number of sled owners dropping, as well as the amount of trail systems. Those systems that get reliable snow will figure out ways to do things better than they are now and will become the place where 85-90% of the snowmobiling is done. The sleds will continue to get more and more advanced and more expensive, but the cost increase will slow like the auto industry did in the past 5-7 years.
So what do you all think? No way, no how, or "Hey that goofy looking guy in the corner might be onto something"?
-John
tealracing16
Member
I agree with the above. As an "old" millennial I don't see my friends snowmobiling and the ones that do all don't help out. They don't have the time or money to have sleds. I think that's the biggest problem we have is the lack of interest AND the lack of private land access.
Added Note: I ride a 1998 Indy 500 with 9000 miles. Yes I should upgrade and really want to but not right now. I need more sleds for my wife and kids at this point not a new one for me.
As a side note our club went to Calumet a couple of weeks ago (hadn't been there on a sled in 12 years, amazing as I remember). I had about 10k between my car, trailer and sled. The next cheapest was probably around 60k. I saw set ups that cleared 100k. It's a very expensive sport. I had 700 in cash for the weekend and I went home with 20 in my pocket. That's all food, lodging, gas fun etc. I can eat that but only once a winter for sure. friends in our club said nope to rich for my blood with 3/4 sleds plus all the food and gas for 3/4 people.
Added Note: I ride a 1998 Indy 500 with 9000 miles. Yes I should upgrade and really want to but not right now. I need more sleds for my wife and kids at this point not a new one for me.
As a side note our club went to Calumet a couple of weeks ago (hadn't been there on a sled in 12 years, amazing as I remember). I had about 10k between my car, trailer and sled. The next cheapest was probably around 60k. I saw set ups that cleared 100k. It's a very expensive sport. I had 700 in cash for the weekend and I went home with 20 in my pocket. That's all food, lodging, gas fun etc. I can eat that but only once a winter for sure. friends in our club said nope to rich for my blood with 3/4 sleds plus all the food and gas for 3/4 people.
I wont get into how I ended up with my 2017 eltigre and if it hadn't transpired I wouldn't own a new one either, when my son bought it I had just upgraded from my 2000 Polaris 600 touring that I purchased for $300 from an insurance company, it was only a couple years old at time, stuck $1800 into it, rode it until 2016, sold it for $1400 so basically had many years of enjoyment and the way I see it costed me nothing (as fat as sled goes), I upgraded to my 07 f1000 and when my son wanted to buy eltigre I told him I could have bought 4 of mine for his one and I would get same enjoyment, I too don't need latest and greatest either and if things hadn't transpired as they did wouldn't have the 2017. I agree on the club and volunteers, until I opened shop I belonged to a fishing club and was very active and just as in sledding the older group was dwindeling and the replacement of new members wasn't equal to the loss and it was always the same group of volunteers so I agree completely with you with that.
scoot
Member
I dont think people mind opening their wallets if they think something is worth the cost. Times have changed. People want variety and expect to be dazzled. If the sport truly wants to survive it will need to offer more than just riding. Society has changed. People want all inclusive packages with premium lodging, dinning, indoor water parks, shows, fireworks, etc. Look at places like Las Vegas or Branson. Or use Disney World as a business model. We went right before Christmas. Its a sensory overload everywhere you look. There was something for everyone to do from our young grandkids, our grown kids or my wife and I. We stayed at one of the premium resorts on site. Access to all their parks (Magic Kingdom, Epcot, Animal Kingdom, Hollywood studios, etc) the meals, shows and rides were all available with just a swipe of our wristbands. When we bought extras not covered, we just swiped our wristbands and it got charged to our room and C/C. When the grandkids got tired, they'd spend the rest of the evening at the wave pool or game room. My wife and I would catch a show or drink wine while sitting in the hot tub watching the fireworks. To be sure, it all cost a small fortune, but not anymore than snowmobiling has cost per days of use, if we truly add everything up. We plan to go to Disney again next year too. Even if I need to sell another old snowmobile to do it.
confusion_900
Member
New Truck = $60- 70 K
4 Place trailer = $10-12 K
4 Sleds = $10 k each (average)
Can’t put a Price on Fun !!
Go to work and pay bills...
4 Place trailer = $10-12 K
4 Sleds = $10 k each (average)
Can’t put a Price on Fun !!
Go to work and pay bills...
yup agreed but I think it's happening a lot faster- livery barns added gas or went out of business around 1900. gas stations will have do the same with charging stations- a quick charge (80%) is already down to 20 min I believe- A regular gas stop takes 10 min or more if you go inside -battery life seems to improve every year, small and very large trucks with local and predictable routes are already on battery and slow charging with cheaper rates at night. wind and solar have have improved dramatically in the last 20 years and this is key because electricity from coal is not a good long term solution, coal will continually go up in price as we have to go deeper to get it -- just like cooper in the UP - there are millions of tons to harvest but most of it is now to deep in the ground to make money in the UP
I disagree with the notion of how expensive snowmobiling has come. Everyone who uses this argument always discusses buying brand new: truck, trailer, sled, etc. I have many friends that have sleds but no trailer or even a big truck. Not every sledder needs a 4 place trailer as well. If you do not have the budget to buy everything new, its relatively easy to be thrifty in this sport. Used sled prices are damn near rock bottom and picking up an affordable trailer is easy given the number of different brands out there. I bought a brand new Triton 2 place clam shell for under 4k a few years ago....used those are easy to find in the 2-3k range.
The problem with our sport in my eyes is the lack of consistent snow and the amount of work it takes to go find it. Many of the complainers seems to be from areas that they used to be able to ride from the backyard. They are not used to having to buy a trailer or even worry about a tow rig. In my opinion snowmobiling can be done cheap if you do not need the latest and greatest.
The problem with our sport in my eyes is the lack of consistent snow and the amount of work it takes to go find it. Many of the complainers seems to be from areas that they used to be able to ride from the backyard. They are not used to having to buy a trailer or even worry about a tow rig. In my opinion snowmobiling can be done cheap if you do not need the latest and greatest.
indy_500
Well-known member
Between my truck, trailer, 3 sleds, and top of the line gear I'm around $70,000 invested. That doesn't include my garage full of tools to work on all the chit. If you look at it that way, it's absolutely crazy... I would probably own the $40,000 truck whether i snowmobiled or not though... Too many factors come into play that's going to kill the sport. Price, private land diminishing, lack of volunteers, and inconsistent winters. If you want to stay in it you're gonna need a tow rig and a trailer to chase the snow. If you want to relax in your recliner and wait for snow around home, the sport can be VERY cheap. For a stretch of almost 10 years, taking up my teen years, we had rideable snow out my back door consistently for years. I owned $1500-2500 sleds and put anywhere from 2500-5000 miles a year on and had a blast.
I think just my outer layer of gear is pushing $1,500. Not to mention I buy a new machine and then buy a bunch of $$$'s worth of parts for it to make it "mine" Ya the money is part of it. I will say though the land access is getting very tough. We have a (insert naughty words here) from down in southern Iowa who bought a bunch of "junk" land just east of me for cheap. He then found a program the DNR has to re-establish the rattle snake population. ( ya tax dollars hard at work...) So hes got a bunch of goats that are grazing this land and he is getting paid big $$'s from the state. Well he decided he didn't want sleds going through his land anymore. Cut off a huge artery in our trail system. For some gosh darned rattle snakes... Dude lives 250 miles south of here but... Don't even get me started on the deer hunting land owners....
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These are the same things I hear at the hunt club. The same things my buddies who fish complain about. The same things the car club guys complain about. The sport is not going anywhere. My father told me about these same problems as a boater. He always complained about bad summers and increase of prices. He bought his first boat at 17. Hes 71 and has three boats and is still boating to this day!!! Everyone needs to chill and just ride!!!
ICT Sledder
Active member
Fuel costs are the biggest problem variable. The main cost that is unavoidable, unlike $70K trucks, $15K trailers and $17K sleds.
Sleds get - what?- low teens on average across the board. Average rider likes to put on (again, a guess) 125-175 miles per day on a trip. Most sledders have a gas 1/2 ton getting probably high single digits towing a sled trailer, and are making a 600-1000 mile round trip drive to get to reliable snow areas.
Makes the difference between a season where $2 gas is the norm a totally different animal than $4 gas, and gas isn’t going to get cheaper long-term.
Sleds get - what?- low teens on average across the board. Average rider likes to put on (again, a guess) 125-175 miles per day on a trip. Most sledders have a gas 1/2 ton getting probably high single digits towing a sled trailer, and are making a 600-1000 mile round trip drive to get to reliable snow areas.
Makes the difference between a season where $2 gas is the norm a totally different animal than $4 gas, and gas isn’t going to get cheaper long-term.
back to the actual cost to ride...please weight in....
I don't count my truck cost because i would have one anyway -but still .50 a mile for the truck I count 1/2 the trailer cause I use it for other stuff- still .10 cents a mile for that-hopefully I can spit truck/trailer costs with other people on the trip -have older sleds so figure 50.00 a day maintenance/deprecation, 10 a day clothing replacement, (wearout your old stuff) food lodging 70 a day (share a room), 30 a day sled gas, what else? I go mostly off trial so I look at cost per hour of riding not miles.
I come up with an est of about 200 a day -8 hours - so about 25 an hour to ride. The more hours you ride-per trip the cheaper it gets per hour!! I know you could spent twice that pretty easy but you don't have to. What did I forget? what are your est costs?
I don't count my truck cost because i would have one anyway -but still .50 a mile for the truck I count 1/2 the trailer cause I use it for other stuff- still .10 cents a mile for that-hopefully I can spit truck/trailer costs with other people on the trip -have older sleds so figure 50.00 a day maintenance/deprecation, 10 a day clothing replacement, (wearout your old stuff) food lodging 70 a day (share a room), 30 a day sled gas, what else? I go mostly off trial so I look at cost per hour of riding not miles.
I come up with an est of about 200 a day -8 hours - so about 25 an hour to ride. The more hours you ride-per trip the cheaper it gets per hour!! I know you could spent twice that pretty easy but you don't have to. What did I forget? what are your est costs?