could it be I'm stupid?

L

lenny

Guest
Man, talk about bad luck or plain stupidity. I like to maintain my vehicles and do some of the easier repairs, brakes, water pumps that sort of stuff. So, my plow truck sits most the summer and I do drive it 4-5 times to just keep it running. I fire it up after siting for a 5-6 weeks and starts good, runs smooth but seems to idle real low upon coming to a stop. Eventually it started to die when coming to a stop but I figured it just needed to be run and I'd fill up with fresh fuel. Well I did fill up and no improvement, eventually the truck started chuggin and stalling in the road. Once I pulled over when it was chuggin and she died when I stopped and wouldn't re-start so I poped the hood, opened the lid off the air cleaner and hit the throttle by hand and did not see any fuel pumping so I figured I'd start with a fuel filter. I changed the filter and it fired right up, idled well but just down the street she died and after 5 minutes it would fire up and run for just a few minutes and die again like it running out of fuel. I have owned the truck for a little over a year and figured may have piece of mind and just change the mechanical fuel pump, easy enough right? Right! Changed the pump and no go, same exact situation, fires up, runs but dies after a few minutes and now it running rougher than ever. I had new gas, new filter, new pump, what else can I be missing. I look at the quadrajet carb and see there are plugs over the mixture screws and that tells me it has never been rebuilt so maybe I need to rebuild the carb. I rebuild the carb and it goes smooth, re-install and fire it up and runs good so I drive it down to the highway and she wont run over 35 mph so what the heck!!!!!!

I also had done the obvious look over to see if the cap , rotor and wires were fine and they looked recent and tidy. Vacuum lines looked well but some minor cracking. First thing I thought was I didn't get the carb clean but the fact that it ran good for a few minutes at a time lead me to believe the ignition and carb were fine. maybe the float adjustment I screwed up? Hmmmm,,,,,,. So I pull carb off again and can see much better all the lines and to my surprise I find a 1/2 vacuum line sitting on the exhaust crossovers on the intake manifold and say,, wow,, it's gonna be fixed! I had a line in my tool box and in minutes I fire it up and runs good so I go for a ride and it stalls in the road and will not restart. 5 minutes later it restart and I hobble it home just made it chuggin. I take the carb off again and decide to open it up and make sure I didn't screw something up in the carb bur soon as I get the carb off I see some cracks in other lines and think I may have the problem solved. My truck has 2 air pumps that inject air to keep the cat converter working good. I bought the truck and it didn't have a converter and the air pumps didn't have the belt on so I spin the pumps by hand and they are tight so I figure I will eliminate all the emission crap and eliminate many possible vacuum leaks. I get all that crap off in 1 hr and the engine bay looks all tidy and huge with all that junk gone. I did have to reconnect some vacuum lines like the erg and vacuum advance for the dis timing. I didn't think I would get into a mess with eliminating emissions but I sure did. I fire the truck up and it wont run but with the pedal half way to the floor and now I am at a total loss what to do next so I stand there studying my mess and see a pile of parts on the garage floor and like what did I just do! So, I run over to Pat's Yamaha and they have some really good guys working there and Jeff tells me to just keep the egr unplugged and that will not be an issue. I ask him about the other 5 ports on the carb which are now plugged and he says they are accessory lines and they are no longer needed as I eliminated the emissions (accessory.) After I unplugged the egr it fired up and ran smooth so I figured it's fixed so I run it down the road and she falls on her face again at 35 mph. I get the beast back home some how and am ready to climb the bluff out back and do a back flip right off the cliff. I drank a few beers and settled down a little and starred at it again for a while. I figure I will look at it one part at a time. I only have 2 vacuum lines now, one for the brake booster and the vacuum advance. I have no leaks so I am looking at all the ports on the manifold I plugged and start to think where I need to get vacuum at for the dis advance. I run over to Pat's again and ask Jeff and he tells me it needs to come from a port higher then the throttle plates and has no vacuum at idel and does have vacuum at increase rmp's. That makes sense since you normally check timing with the advanced unplugged. I check my source and realize I have the dis advance plugged into the wrong port and am all excited that I got the right one now and my timing will advance as I increase rpms on the highway,,, seems logical right? I drive it and get to the highway and at 35 mph she falls off again and now I am looking for a big tree and ready to yank the wheel right into the motha. Holy cow am I ever a mess and totally ticked. I get the pig home after 413 tries to this point and think, valves getting hot? What the heck?

I just seems like I'm not getting fuel and so I muster up some more courage and think, check the fuel volume flow. I call the carb rebuild place and they say I should be able to crank out with the starter 1 pint in 15 seconds of cranking. I grab a milk jug and tell my wife I need her help. She cranks the starter while I hold the fuel line in the jug and I get 3-4 ounces,,,what the heck. I take the filter off and crank with no filter and get major volume and say the filter is the problem. This was in the day light and I look at the gas in the jug and it's half water.Are you kidding me?

So now I need to drain the tank and it's not gonna happen through the filler neck. Fortunate for me my truck has no box and has wood for a flat bed. I pull off a few board and expose the sending unit opening and what a mess there. Lines rusty and crusty and I think there is no way I'm gonna get this thing apart without breaking something and it's gonna cost me hrs and lots of money. I did actually get it apart without breaking it. Me and a buddy siphon 12 gallons out and at the end I find 1.5 gallons of water that was in my tank,, can you believe it. I get er all cleaned out and back together and it's cold out. I fire it up and take it for a ride and it never has run so smooth.

Figures that I always get it fixed after a major ordeal. It really is funny how I created many problems for myself, thought a fixed it so many times with a huge vacuum leak, no advance,,,, etc. All this happened over a period a 4-5 days with a few hrs here and there so you can believe I was discouraged to the max. I've not beat the dog since I got the truck fixed ,,,, just kidding.

When I bought old blue from JD it had an overheating problem but I figured I'd fix that. Coolant was full and clean, so I changed the stat because it was easy and cheep, no luck. I Change the water pump because it was nasty looking and old,,no luck. I see some very small bubbles in the radiator white it is running and people tell me that the 4.3 has issue with intake gasket going bad so now I dig into that and change the intake manifold gasket which by the way means you take off many other things to do that job. put it back together and no luck. I now flush the entire system including the heater core and no luck. People say it has to be the heads so I tear it back down including the intake I just removed and installed and put new head gaskets on it. Fire it up and no luck, now I am looking for my gun,, bastage! Next I get on line and research and a guy says maybe you have air in your cooling system so I prop up the front end and leave the rad cap off over night and no luck. I figure, all the coolant I drained went back in so what the heck. Another guy says he had problems with cheap thermostats. I try another stat and no luck,,now I am on line looking for a one way ticket to Siberia and foaming at the mouth. My gosh,,, had the heads off, intake twice, who the heck am I to think I change a light bulb even!!!!!!!Now I have 1 week into this pile and no better than day one and just under $200 in parts. A guy on line private messages me and axxes* me it the stat I bought had a little hole in it and I replied no. He told me to drill a very small hole into the flange because OEM stats had a small hole. I yank it off and drill a tiny hold into it and now all of a sudden I am adding coolant like I had never before. My problem was I had air in the system. Now am I a genius or what?

This afternoon I have a little time and need to replace the rear rotors on the wife's mini van. I get the wheel, caliper off and rotor is stuck. I wrap on it, go to Pat;s and ask Jess what to do and he says work it off. I try for 1 hr and it's stuck so I put it back together,,,, I'm done!
 
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jr37

Well-known member
I had a day like that this summer. One night our van started to make a clicking sound. We were about 12 miles from home and it just kept getting worse as we got closer to home. The next day I checked it all over to the best of knowledge. Didn't apperar to be a wheel bearing, cv joint, brakes, etc. I just didn't know. I took it to the garage I always take our vehicles to. It turned out to be loose lug nut on a front wheel. Boy did I feel like an idiot, almost didn't want to show my face to pick it up.:confused:
 

snowdance

Member
Could be the longest post I've ever seen :) and for some reason I read almost all of it and don't even understand half of it. Sorry for your frustrations :(
 

reiley99

New member
I've had days like that. The worst thing I ever did is I was replacing the spark plugs on an audi I use to have.On the plugs you have to unscrew the tops off the new plugs well one of the plugs i was doing the top fell off in the engine department and I couldn't find it.So I finished the job started up the car and it make a terrible noise.Well I found out where the top went it fell in the spark plug hole and destroyed the engine.
 

anonomoose

New member
Lenny..who among us have not jumped before doing a full investigation?

It is human and there is no shame in admitting it. However, we need to learn from our experiences, because if we don't learn from them, then we really are dumb as stumps.

Sometimes it is better to walk away digest what you know and analyze it more before jumping in further.

In the case of the plow truck, you had an issue which you increased by diving in and removing the environmental equipment...so I would call that compounding an issue. As anyone can tell you once you do that, the amount of time to get things "right" will now become exponentially greater.

Did you ever find out why all that water got in there? Will it happen again? Will you check that condition first next time?

You seem to enjoy jumping in and working on things, but there are times that using outside resources is a better investment to solve some of these things. I mean how many of us have jumped in to fix something and because we didn't have the right expertise we broke a fitting or stripped a thread or dropped a nut/bolt where NO MAN can get to? We would have been better off, not touching it, or turning it over to an expert who knew better than to do the stuff that gets your head bald. (probably because they learned "that one" the hard way themselves)

Still I admire your tenacity, and outright need to get to the "bottom" of an issue even if sometimes you would have been better off not messing with it in the first place.
 

Ramsey

New member
I've never met you Lenny but its obvious to me that you are definitely a Jack of all trades. Not only can you spend hours working in the garage but you are a TYPING FOOL. If I ever do meet you I'll be glad to buy you a refreshing drink.
 
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L

lenny

Guest
the environment crap is not going to help my engine run better. The egr is still intact and that does cool the combustion chamber a bit and burns some gases a second time,
Increasing the MPG by .5

Previous owner removed belts of air pumps because bearing were shot, also removed converter. I'm not gonna invest big bucks to get emissions working on a plow truck that will go about 300 miles a year
 
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L

lenny

Guest
Lenny..who among us have not jumped before doing a full investigation?

It is human and there is no shame in admitting it. However, we need to learn from our experiences, because if we don't learn from them, then we really are dumb as stumps.

Sometimes it is better to walk away digest what you know and analyze it more before jumping in further.

In the case of the plow truck, you had an issue which you increased by diving in and removing the environmental equipment...so I would call that compounding an issue. As anyone can tell you once you do that, the amount of time to get things "right" will now become exponentially greater.

Did you ever find out why all that water got in there? Will it happen again? Will you check that condition first next time?

You seem to enjoy jumping in and working on things, but there are times that using outside resources is a better investment to solve some of these things. I mean how many of us have jumped in to fix something and because we didn't have the right expertise we broke a fitting or stripped a thread or dropped a nut/bolt where NO MAN can get to? We would have been better off, not touching it, or turning it over to an expert who knew better than to do the stuff that gets your head bald. (probably because they learned "that one" the hard way themselves)

Still I admire your tenacity, and outright need to get to the "bottom" of an issue even if sometimes you would have been better off not messing with it in the first place.

I guess I honestly don't think I am stupid but I do learn the hard way. My problem is that I do not fully understand the principle of each operating system so that adds a lot of guess work, nor do I have the money to send it out to get it fixed. All the systems work together and that further complicates the issues.
 

garyl62

Active member
Could be the longest post I've ever seen :) and for some reason I read almost all of it and don't even understand half of it. Sorry for your frustrations :(

Exactly what I was thinking as I was nearing the end of the post!

Way to go though Lenny. And keep all that extra environmental crap off that truck, no need to have it and if you spent an extra few hours because you jumped in and took it off I would say it was time well spent!
 
L

lenny

Guest
Moose,

I cannot determine with confidence where the water came from. It could be a few different sources: 1-Right from the pump station, 2- condensation of a long period of time, 3- since no box on the truck, maybe the rain water infiltrated into the tank through the sending unit seal.

The sending unit seal appeared to be fine but none the less I did reseal it. I also added a flashing on top the sending unit to deter water away from the suspect area. I believe I will need to use iso more frequently. In regards to the possibility of pumping it from the station, not much I can do about that. Been buying gas for 5 years locally and not a single prob so odds are other factors most likely.

In a technical sense, removing the smog junk didn't compound the problem, it just confused me and in reality it is simply to operate carbed engine without the smog devices. Looking back in hindsight I am embarrassed I made it as difficult as I did.

Bottom line, I still come out ahead because of the knowledge attained but the road getting there is long and rough.
 
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L

lenny

Guest
Main reason for this thread

is to show you guys some symptoms of water in fuel. A little water can get through and run rough. Water will also clog the fuel filter thus the reason why I couldn't get over 35 mph. The fuel filter restricted the fuel deliver volume of fuel to operate the engine at the particular load placed on it. Water was the problem the entire time and I continued to cloud the issue with the above attempts to fix it. The vacuum advance issue probably never came into play. I just thought it did because the distributor also has a centrifugal advance built in and probably aided the spark advance enough before the fuel couldn't keep up with the demand at 35 mph. The only thing I did do that made it run bad was draw a vacuum through a temp switched vacuum unit to the EGR. Night and day idle difference with the EGR plugged in to wrong source, if I did indeed interpret it correctly.
 

chop

Member
The great thing about your ordeal is now any future problems should be easy to diagnose with your added experience.

I have dealt with every problem you described at one time or another. Usually its a buddys vehicle and usually it takes up space in my garage until I can track down the gremlins.

As far as paying an "expert" to do the work, I wouldnt trust most of the mechanics I know to rotate my tires.
 
L

lenny

Guest
The great thing about your ordeal is now any future problems should be easy to diagnose with your added experience.

I have dealt with every problem you described at one time or another. Usually its a buddys vehicle and usually it takes up space in my garage until I can track down the gremlins.

As far as paying an "expert" to do the work, I wouldnt trust most of the mechanics I know to rotate my tires.

you got that right, diggin in is way advantageous than sending it out,,,, that is if you can still get around with another vehicle
 

indy_500

Well-known member
I guess I honestly don't think I am stupid but I do learn the hard way. My problem is that I do not fully understand the principle of each operating system so that adds a lot of guess work, nor do I have the money to send it out to get it fixed. All the systems work together and that further complicates the issues.

x1000 dont feel alone lenny i feel like i can fix anything if I KNOW WHAT NEEDS TO BE FIXED LOL. Throw some more parts at it usually ends up being my solution...
 

catalac

Active member
Don't feel stupid lenny, I was on the way to work and stopped by Orielly to get some power steering fluid because it was starting to make a noise and was a little low. Dumped her in and drove off to work. I was sitting in the lot cause I got there a little early and was reading the back of the bottle and realized it was BRAKE FLUID!
Now that was stupid!! lol
 

lvr1000

New member
Could be the longest post I've ever seen :) and for some reason I read almost all of it and don't even understand half of it. Sorry for your frustrations :(
read and understood all. My bet is sending unit seal or filler tube seal--gallon and a half is A LOT of water. Been there done that (monster truck playing in the lake.) Best way to determine, top off the fuel to the point of fuel backed up in the filler tube. If they are bad, you will smell and even see the gas leaking. That is how I found mine. That playing in the water also cost me a caliper and starter a few weeks later.

As far as paying an "expert" to do the work, I wouldn't trust most of the mechanics I know to rotate my tires. .

I bought a vehicle that had receipts for three starters in a period of 4 months because of "random" starting problems, starter would not "kick in" I replaced a 39 cent terminal end that went to the starter relay. I have other ones but that is the best!

If it makes you feel any better lenny, I have put 7 gallons of diesel into a ZRT800. I think the smoke cloud is still around as I burnt it out at close to WOT down trail 8. Don't think I got 50 miles out of that tank, I and thought diesel got better MPG. Didn't seem to have as much torque either. LOL
 
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snake

Member
lenny,I've been a marine tech for 30 years,and believe me=we have all had situations like yours! patience is one of the best tools I know of! and its crazy how just walking away from it till the next day can really help! I WOULD HIGHLY recommend putting a "water,fuel seperator filter kit" on the truck. not only is it added filtration,but the really trick thing about it is you can easily remove the filter(looks like an oil filter)and dump the fuel into a clear container and see exactly what u got!! believe me=you will love it!! most any auto parts store should be able to get u one,and they are very reasonable $ it will remove all water until the filter gets full,then it will pass it on. and u can get the replacement filters very cheap. its a what I like to call "a cheap insurance policy". and dont think this is meant directly towards you,but there's an old saying us techs even need to use from time to time=KISS=keep it simple stupid. one last thing=I believe iso has its place,but alcohol by nature ATTRACTS water!! an example where I would not use is that if a guy is running ethynol fuel=you will make it worse! same with sea foam,it has its place,but its not a "do everything" product=read the msds sheet on it=it contains "IPA" or iso propyl alcohol, this was brought to our attention in one of our advanced mercury classes last year. good job of keeping after it!! and I do appreciate all ur snow reports!
 

ffemt

Member
Lenny your the man with the best snow reports. No offense to anyone else. You can refab a house I can barely nail two 2x4 together haha. I was rebuilding top end of a 97 350 chevy a couple months ago during putting it together late evening heads on intake on **** where gonna have this running tonight !!! haha putting the fuel lines together by the firewall strip the fitting had quite a few words for my self and done for evening time to drink got it together the next day. We tinker we learn and bust knuckles .
 
L

lenny

Guest
lenny,I've been a marine tech for 30 years,and believe me=we have all had situations like yours! patience is one of the best tools I know of! and its crazy how just walking away from it till the next day can really help! I WOULD HIGHLY recommend putting a "water,fuel seperator filter kit" on the truck. not only is it added filtration,but the really trick thing about it is you can easily remove the filter(looks like an oil filter)and dump the fuel into a clear container and see exactly what u got!! believe me=you will love it!! most any auto parts store should be able to get u one,and they are very reasonable $ it will remove all water until the filter gets full,then it will pass it on. and u can get the replacement filters very cheap. its a what I like to call "a cheap insurance policy". and dont think this is meant directly towards you,but there's an old saying us techs even need to use from time to time=KISS=keep it simple stupid. one last thing=I believe iso has its place,but alcohol by nature ATTRACTS water!! an example where I would not use is that if a guy is running ethynol fuel=you will make it worse! same with sea foam,it has its place,but its not a "do everything" product=read the msds sheet on it=it contains "IPA" or iso propyl alcohol, this was brought to our attention in one of our advanced mercury classes last year. good job of keeping after it!! and I do appreciate all ur snow reports!

Lenny your the man with the best snow reports. No offense to anyone else. You can refab a house I can barely nail two 2x4 together haha. I was rebuilding top end of a 97 350 chevy a couple months ago during putting it together late evening heads on intake on **** where gonna have this running tonight !!! haha putting the fuel lines together by the firewall strip the fitting had quite a few words for my self and done for evening time to drink got it together the next day. We tinker we learn and bust knuckles .


water fuel separator hey? I like it already. Gonna call tomorrow and get one on da way

thanks guys, I know walking away is a good thing like yesterday with da wife's rear rotors,,,I like this moto "We tinker we learn and bust knuckles"

I oughta get that on a banner and post it on my garage wall,,,,lol
 
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