Death Spiral

[Tracker]

Seems like we have the permit cost view that the more fortunate that will pay the piper and don't care what the permit costs.... Then you have the less fortunate that need to control their overall sleddin costs & have to take from Peter to give to Paul to stay in the sport. I understand the high costs of having a well groomed trail system but overall costs of sleddin will thin the heard and as that happens there will be less of us to pay for less trail permits to support trails. Permit costs will go up & the logic for higher costs is cycling before our eyes. I don't see any other answer.... you have to pay to play and at some point your budget could stop you from sleddin or you will need to cut your costs to participate within your budget....somehow?

Maybe this topic should turn to how to save money so a sledder can afford overall costs of snowmobiling? Ok we have a problem ....what is the solution?

heres what the SOLUTION was when I was young and poor....I rode a beat azz 1973 lil whip scorpion....then a run down skidoo 5500 blizzard....then a 3 time blown motor VMAX bored to 580 crank breaker....then used and abused 1979 340 trailfires...then 1980 440 liquifires....then 1981 liqifire delux....notice how the sled years did not go up as I got older...I rode pieces of shazz until I was like 30 something....out of many many sleds...I have only had 3 brandy new ones...ever...and all just recently...a 1999, 2004, 2016....theres many sleds I left out of story...plus I slept In the back of a van in a parking lot of church just to go sledding with just enough money to ride 2 days of gas....took tuna with to eat out of a pack....all kinds of crazy stuff just to have enough to sled a little....saved and took family once a year on big trip....to hard for little ones unless you live on the trail...but I found 2 used deers and a trailer at farmers for 700 bucks...so cheap kids sleds can be found...ran a lot of 340s...I would do the same if I was in you shoes....just make it happen cause there is nothing else in the world like it....FREE INDY CAR RACING IN THE WOODS....LOL

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So it sounds like where all rich,well we can spend big bucks on our trucks,sleds,trailers,gear,oil and fill our tanks to the top.I say there are other reasons of the decline of sledders.

the biggest decline is because NONE of the manus have middle sleds any more....they need to get 440 and 500 and 340 back into the mix....right now its either huge or super small...they are thinking PROFIT only....the middle sleds PROMOTE the sport 10x more than they realize...but the PROFIT on those is tiny...so what I say...since 400x tiny out weighs the larger profit on big sleds....they are ID10Ts right now

 

[sweeperguy]

Alot of guys out there it's only an hour of work (or less). Probably 3 at extreme most. So thinking its not as much as people's gripes. Loke tracker said, you don't have to have the latest greatest sleds to enjoy the sport. I also have only had new sleds for only the last few years. My first brand new sled was a 12 IQ, and i didnt even get that till '13. My current sled was also a non-current new, when I got it. But been riding for over 40 years.
Never had a brand new truck till 04. My current truck I bought used (its an 04). May or may not buy another new sled or truck. Sure they are nice but used is definitely a nice option too.

 

[shelby369]

I just went and bought a 2017 AC 9000 lxr just to put a $45 UP sticker on it........happy as a bird....let it snow!!!!!

 

[Skylar]

A lot of guys make 48 an hour? Holy chit!

 

[G]

Well after 64 posts it kind of looks to me like guys that travel long distances and only get permits for one sled don't really care about sled permit costs. Guys that bring their families and have to get permits for multiple sleds are feeling the pinch. With the exception of Tracker who likes to buy trail stickers. So family sledding is kind of not rewarded. Everybody has to start somewhere and I don't know of any 10 year olds that can purchase their own sleds. Another reason the whole sport is dying. The only solution I can think of is to have large families with lots of sleds start hanging out with Tracker who doesn't seem to care how many permits he buys. After that I have no solutions.

 

[sweeperguy]

A lot of guys make 48 an hour? Holy chit!

I would think thats not a unrealistic statement

You may have taken my wording of ALOT to mean more than I intended. I didn't say most, or the vast majority of people.

 

[snobuilder]

If you have the passion, you will always find a way to ride.

 

[fcat700]

We have six family sleds and we're planning to drag um to the UP but it's definitely subject to change. I could give the four kids $45 each fun money and still have $90 in my pocket if we stay in Wisconsin. Makes you think twice I guess.

 

[eagle1]

My trail pass cost $50.....your welcome MSA. Now where's my snow!?!? Lmao

 

[jr37]

If you have the passion, you will always find a way to ride.

To me, this is the most true statement made so far.

I'm 47 years old and I don't know any other way of life than snowmobiling. My parents were riding before I was born, and that's all I've know my entire life. It's in my blood. My 3 trail sleds have a total value of less than most of your trailers, but we have just as much fun going for our little rides from home as most of you have on your long trips.

At this stage in life I have no desire to have a huge investment in riding, but we'll have a blast on a low budget. It's because we make the best of what we have. Where there is the desire, there will be a way. You don't need the biggest and newest, you just need the desire.

 

[Tracker]

Well after 64 posts it kind of looks to me like guys that travel long distances and only get permits for one sled don't really care about sled permit costs. Guys that bring their families and have to get permits for multiple sleds are feeling the pinch. With the exception of Tracker who likes to buy trail stickers. So family sledding is kind of not rewarded. Everybody has to start somewhere and I don't know of any 10 year olds that can purchase their own sleds. Another reason the whole sport is dying. The only solution I can think of is to have large families with lots of sleds start hanging out with Tracker who doesn't seem to care how many permits he buys. After that I have no solutions.

if you live ON THE TRAIL then each time you go out divided by cost of sticker means you only spend 1.25 on each ride...per machine....and the kids...I let them take the sleds out on lake Shaffer when its frozen so that's free sledding...and no trailering...I let the kids go everytime theres even a hint of sledding opportunity...that way they pass on the long drive trips...saves money....and sleds are cheap....I used to buy from terpstras all the scrap sleds...some for a 100 bucks....that one is still going...a 1995 POLARIOUS 488 INDY TRAIL that had 8500 miles on it...cheap....now I buy stuff along the WALL OF SHAME at adventure centre...same thing....cheap nice sleds for renters.....LOL...you can buy a sled from bob that's less than renting one for a week and then take it home...win win...kids sleds like 250 bravos and 340 deeres....I ALWAYS look for those in IOWA or southern INDIANA...why johhny? because they were given out to farmers as a gift for buying a combine....and there they sit...never used....farmer only wants 300 bucks...hundreds of them around....its not that hard for cripes sakes

PS...divide trail pass cost by miles rode and your 11 coats of paint tighty whitey blood cutting off circulation to thinking cap....and you'll be easier to accept the naugahyde wedge you receive from pass...it will be like .04 a mile...LMAO

 

[groomerdriver]

Well after 64 posts it kind of looks to me like guys that travel long distances and only get permits for one sled don't really care about sled permit costs. Guys that bring their families and have to get permits for multiple sleds are feeling the pinch. With the exception of Tracker who likes to buy trail stickers. So family sledding is kind of not rewarded. Everybody has to start somewhere and I don't know of any 10 year olds that can purchase their own sleds. Another reason the whole sport is dying. The only solution I can think of is to have large families with lots of sleds start hanging out with Tracker who doesn't seem to care how many permits he buys. After that I have no solutions.

The sport will die to when there aren't enough volunteers (in Wisco at least) that are willing to spend the time necessary for the trails to "happen". I know I'm pretty much speaking to the choir here. Lot's of "not in the know" sledders in this state think the WI DNR does all the work.

I'm sure my comment will bring out the typical comments relating to the clubs not welcoming new members which in the larger scale is a bunch of beesheet to me.

 

[renegade600]

The Disney analogy does not really hold water..... I have taken the kid to Disney once in his lifetime... I've been to Disney twice in my life (I'm 54)... both times were "saved for" trips..... I sled every season, so really can not compare a trip to Disney with an every year escalating expense...

The sport is dying a slow death, without influx of new people, escalation in costs of pay to play, sled companies will offer less and less, prices will go up for new equipment, then even less people will be involved..... unfortunate, but true....

 

[snobinge]

Well I bet 20-30 years ago you wouldn't believe people would be trowing down 150k on a wakeboard/surf boat! Oh and every time you back that boat down a DNR owned ramp you shell out an average of $7. So seven visits to the lake is equivalent to a trail sticker.

 

[Hoosier]

Michigan's trail permits went up by $3 this year.

Normally the "sport is dying" emails don't come out until the 1st of the year. You don't need an excuse to get out.

I don't get out riding much but when I do there always seems to be a lot of sleds out. In Ontario they have been re-opening trails the past few years. Gas is cheap right now.

Yes the top of the line sleds cost more each year but you can still get into a 600 from any of the three that make them right now for a fair price or buy a good used sled too.

Anyone on here with the MSA? They need to hear the feedback about a short term pass. No one seems to disagree with that.

 

[G]

I know a lot of you are boondockers and I might have been one too if we could have had sleds suitable for it back in the 70's. But I am a flatlander and when we got groomed trails in the mid 80's I thought I had died and gone to heaven. Now I can ride my sled two miles out my back door and hit a groomed trail that I can ride all the way to and through Mich. (snow permitting) Or I can go to Canada and ride their groomed trails. For someone like me things have never been better. It is sad to see the sport dying when we have never had it so good. Again you have to pay to play. Can anyone imagine going back to non-groomed trails? Never going to happen so somebody has to pay. I will do my share.

 

[Tracker]

fellas.....something whilst ya waits...ENJOY

 

[mezz]

I know a lot of you are boondockers and I might have been one too if we could have had sleds suitable for it back in the 70's. But I am a flatlander and when we got groomed trails in the mid 80's I thought I had died and gone to heaven. Now I can ride my sled two miles out my back door and hit a groomed trail that I can ride all the way to and through Mich. (snow permitting) Or I can go to Canada and ride their groomed trails. For someone like me things have never been better. It is sad to see the sport dying when we have never had it so good. Again you have to pay to play. Can anyone imagine going back to non-groomed trails? Never going to happen so somebody has to pay. I will do my share.

We were boondocking in the 70's, 80's, 90's with 121's, that's all we had. Deep snow sleds didn't happen until around 1996 with the SKS & Mountain Cats of which were only 136's. The true deep snow sleds came about in early 2000's. Despite the lack of deep snow sleds, we still pounded through the backwoods & put more miles out there than on the trail. Nonetheless, we still bought the trail permit, eventually, you had to use a part of the trail to get to a gas station & home safely. The permit cost is well worth the support of the sport, even if it has risen in cost, the benefit of it cannot be denied. I like the idea of a daily pass, however, that would be more costly due to the separate permits not to mention that enforcement would be rather difficult of which would result in abuses.-Mezz

 

[POLARISDAN]

I know a lot of you are boondockers and I might have been one too if we could have had sleds suitable for it back in the 70's. But I am a flatlander and when we got groomed trails in the mid 80's I thought I had died and gone to heaven. Now I can ride my sled two miles out my back door and hit a groomed trail that I can ride all the way to and through Mich. (snow permitting) Or I can go to Canada and ride their groomed trails. For someone like me things have never been better. It is sad to see the sport dying when we have never had it so good. Again you have to pay to play. Can anyone imagine going back to non-groomed trails? Never going to happen so somebody has to pay. I will do my share.

been following this thread and am curious.. who is the authority that says this sport is "dying".. it sure seems like tons of sleds when im out and about all winter..

and in terms of price? go to trackers ad videos thread and tell me u want to ride a sit down sled..technology costs money..ill take the ripin standup sled and pay the price..could care less what it costs..i work all year for it..and its worth every penny..

and really..this trail pass thread every year is a joke..50 bucks..omg

 

[G]

The peak years for snowmobile sales and production were in the early 70's. There were nearly 100 mfgs. Now there are 3 and 1/2 mfgs. I live in Pols and AC's back yard. Back in the 70's and 80's just about everybody had at least 1 sled and many had 2 or 3 or 4. Keep in mind this was before groomed trails. Now very few folks have sleds. Our group of 15 that used to ride every thursday night is down to 2. The trails get groomed and the next time the groomer goes out there are no sled tracks to cover up. There is no question that the sport is dying. Here anyway. There are many reasons for it. I think Tracker is dead on when he stated the emphasis on the higher cc more expensive sled trend. Can you even buy a new 340 any more? Around here older 2000 era XC 500s get snapped up quickly. There are very few cheap entry level sleds. And when nobody young takes the place of us old geezers who move to Florida or die that will be the end of it. The only place there is any action is in the UP or Wisc snow permitting. Everywhere else is down. People have found other things to do. Trail permit costs are really not an issue.