Economic uncertainty? (Is there really such a term??)

anonomoose

New member
Is this finally the economic collapse?

<?xml:namespace prefix = fb /><fb:like class=" fb_edge_widget_with_comment fb_iframe_widget" href="http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/11/news/economy/economic_collapse_GDP_unemployment.fortune/index.htm" action="recommend" width="450" layout="standard" show_faces="false" background="none"></fb:like>By Keith R. McCullough, contributor August 11, 2010: 2:07 PM ET


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FORTUNE -- The Great Depression. Wall Street in 1987. Japan in 1997. Points of economic collapse are generally crystal clear in the rear-view mirror. Professional politicians in Japan have been telling stories for 20 years as to why they can prevent economic stagnation. In the US, the storytelling started in 2007. All the while, stock market and real-estate prices have repeatedly rallied to lower-highs, then collapsed again, to lower-lows.
Despite the many differences between Japan and the US, there is one similarity that continues to matter most in the risk management model my colleagues and I use at Hedgeye, our research firm -- debt as a percentage of GDP. Now that the US can't cut interest rates any lower, the only option left on the table is what the Fed just announced it would start doing -- buying Treasury debt. And that could lead the country to the brink of collapse: According to economists Carmen Reinhart & Ken Rogoff, whose views we share, crossing the 90% debt/GDP threshold is the equivalent of crossing the proverbial Rubicon of economic growth. It's a point from which it's almost impossible to return.
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<!--endclickprintexclude--><!-- /REAP -->On July 2nd, we cut both our third quarter 2010 and full year 2011 GDP estimates for the US to 1.7%. At the time, the consensus around US economic growth estimates was about 3%. Now we're starting to see both big brokerage analysts and the Federal Reserve gradually cut their GDP estimates, but not by enough. Even our estimate for 2011 is still too high.
Slowing growth, both domestically and in China, is core to our bearish views on both the strength of the US dollar and US equities. There will be a downward bias to our US growth estimates as long as debt-financed-deficit-spending continues to be the solution politicians and central bankers turn to as a fix to our financial crisis.
Markets trade on expectations. Yesterday's zig-zag in the S&P 500 was unlike most sleepy August trading days in America. That's because the 'government is good' crowd leaked word that this second round of "quantitative easing," known as QE2, was coming, and that Ben Bernanke was going to respond to our buy-and-hope begging. (The first round of quantitative easing was the Fed's unprecedented purchase of agency debt to prop up the housing market, along with credit facilities for big banks, which began in 2008 and ended earlier this year.)
To think that we have institutionalized market expectations to this degree is downright frightening. It seems impossible but true that all rallies start and end with rumors about what Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke, a humble looking man of government, had to say at 2:15 PM EST yesterday afternoon, or any other day he makes a statement.
So now what?
With 40.8 million Americans on food stamps (record high) and 45% of the unemployed having been seeking employment for 27 weeks or more (record high), what's left if (or when) QE2 doesn't kick start GDP growth? Should we start begging for QE3? Should we cancel the bomb of the National Association of Realtors' existing home sales report, scheduled for public release on August 24th? Or should we bite the bullet and accept that current economic policy dictates 0% returns-on-savings, even as Washington continues to lever-up our future to the point of economic collapse?
Before the Fiat Fools -- Hedgeye's name for political actors and bankers who have placed their hopes of economic recovery in printing endless supplies of new cash -- run out campaigning for QE3, maybe they should analyze some real time market results to yesterday's announcement of QE2:
1)The US dollar is battling for resuscitation after 9 consecutive down weeks -- down 9% since June.
2) US Treasury yields are making record lows on the short end of the curve, with 2-year yields striking 0.49%.
3) The yield spread (in this case the difference in return between 10-year and 2-year Treasury bills, which shows a long-term confidence when high) continues to collapse, down another 4 basis point day-over-day to 223 basis points.
4) The S&P 500 is down below its 200-day moving average (a common signpost for the health of a market or stock) of 1115.
5) US Volatility (VIX) is spiking from its recent stability.
6) In Japan, long time quantitative easing specialists found their markets closing down overnight by 2.7%, which makes them down 11.9% for the year to date.
Lest our doom and gloom seem built entirely on technical measurements, what they boil down to is actually quite simple -- an idea about our country which dates back to 1835. Alexis De Tocqueville, author of Democracy in America, which was published that year, seemed to warn of this day when he wrote: "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
-- Keith R. McCullough is CEO of Hedgeye, a research firm based in New Haven, Conn.
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G

G

Guest
Lots of numbers to munch on. I think the wheels will fall off after the fall elections. That will be the point where nobody can put a face on it anymore. The liberal media keeps saying we are out of the woods but I don't see it on main street. Hyperinflation has to happen at some point with all the $ that has been printed. It is just being put off. When it does happen it will be much worse than it would have been had the powers that be let it happen earlier. We are in for a nasty ride. I would not be surprised if all our trail grooming money gets sucked up by the states so they can spend it on other things they deem more important. At that point I guess I will have to trade my heavy old Yami for a nice light ditch banging 'Doo.
 

dcsnomo

Moderator
Good post, Moose, interesting article and point of view. Grub, my concern is not hyperinflation, my concern is deflation, that is, where the economy slows so much prices fall. Remember, Xgoods times Yprice= GDP (the sum total of all goods and services produced measured in dollars). If price falls it is because of reduced consumption/demand due to the reduced purchasing power of the consumer from unemployment, debt, reduced wages, etc. So, if consumption falls, and price falls, then we are screwed as total GDP falls.

In a micro view if I have to sell X number of rooms at Y price to make a living from my motel (gross sales), and both the number of rooms and the price fall, then my gross sales will fall below a level that is sustainable to meet my fixed costs like mortgage, taxes, insurance, etc. and I fail. If deflation occurs and prices and consumption fall, our debt as a % of GDP rises (same numerator, smaller denominator) and we cannot pay our fixed costs to support it.

I firmly believe we cannot save our way out of the debt crisis, and debt at 90% of GDP is is a crisis. We have to grow our way out of this crisis by increasing our GDP. Since the middle class has been eviscerated by the exportation of manufacturing jobs I have no idea on how to do that.

And, before y'all start comin' out of the "I hate Obama" camps, take a good look at the attached chart. Then, ask yourself the question, "when did America start following the tenets of supply side economics without reducing government spending?"

The answer, btw, is 1980, Reagan/Bush. Remember H W Bush's comment when he was campaigning against Reagan for the nomination? He called this "voodoo economics". Thirty years later it has come home to roost. Get out the chicken bones and incense, maybe that will break the voodoo curse.

Ya can't cut taxes and increase spending for 30 years without creating crushing debt.
 

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favoritos

Well-known member
Interesting where the last big peak is on that chart. We need another manufacturing era to get out of trouble like we did back then.
 

michaeladams

New member
anonomoose,we finally agree on something.i think we can build on this.lol. grub, i am saving money for snowmobiling, i put 100 dollars away per month and sometimes more if i got it.that way i know when winter comes i can go up north a few times.i hope we all can still get out sledding,and don't forget to take out the trash in november.
 

whitedust

Well-known member
The sky is NOT falling just partly cloudy until Q4 after the election. Corps still making good profits just slower now but profit is profit & all are running on paper thin resources. There has to be pent up consumer demand for everything but real unemployment numbers still about 20%. Housing is the biggest problem & I have no idea how to turn that around. Turn housing around & everybody will have more money & wealth to go on buying sprees which in turn will help Main Street & Wall Street. The election will produce gridlock & Wall Street will luv that no goverment uncertainty to worry about. Dems are going to get blasted in Nov just like Reps got blasted 2 years ago we will actually learn to like gridlock gov. always messes things up anyway. My dividend stocks & bonds are doing well going long just ride the ups & downs all evenes out & I'm making money but you have to have the stomach for risk. If your going short sell off now & come back in mid September as will be no surprises in the election at that time & get in before election & Oct-Dec market surge. Me I'm used to this stuff by now the worst is behind us better years ahead.:)
 

Skylar

Super Moderator
Staff member
Love your optimism Whitedust!

I don't know a dang thing about the staock market, I don't follow it very much at all, I know I should but...

What I do know is that wholesale gas prices fell from 2.11 yesterday to 1.99 today, and that means the price at the pump will fall a few pennies, and that always makes me smile. LOL.
 

anonomoose

New member
Love your optimism Whitedust!

I don't know a dang thing about the staock market, I don't follow it very much at all, I know I should but...

What I do know is that wholesale gas prices fell from 2.11 yesterday to 1.99 today, and that means the price at the pump will fall a few pennies, and that always makes me smile. LOL.

Yeah, every time the economic news gets going the price of crude snuffs it out. I associate this with a lampray on a nice lake trout....trying to catch a few extra bait fish and darn if he doesn't have to drag a heavy life sucker around on him to do it.

All I can say Whitey...is if you can make money in this market...you could get a good job on wall street and make a killing investing someone elses money.

Mr. Adams in the interests of sanity, I will forget you said that!

DCS....darn if I don't agree....and I do love charts, (though the Clinton years went thru the DOT com era,) and if it weren't for some who didn't like that time when everyone made money..."Mr. Irrational Exuberance"....and scared the market south...I tend to think we would all have weathered this storm a whole lot better.....and Nash could afford a live in Maid and wouldn't have to put model bridges together to make ends meet!
 
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snoeatr

Member
Wish we would hit bottom so we could start trying to fix it. Just a band-aid so far? Sure hope not but I don't think this is the worst yet. I'm certainly no expert, but not many feel things are getting better.
 

xsledder

Active member
Good post, Moose, interesting article and point of view. Grub, my concern is not hyperinflation, my concern is deflation, that is, where the economy slows so much prices fall. Remember, Xgoods times Yprice= GDP (the sum total of all goods and services produced measured in dollars). If price falls it is because of reduced consumption/demand due to the reduced purchasing power of the consumer from unemployment, debt, reduced wages, etc. So, if consumption falls, and price falls, then we are screwed as total GDP falls.

In a micro view if I have to sell X number of rooms at Y price to make a living from my motel (gross sales), and both the number of rooms and the price fall, then my gross sales will fall below a level that is sustainable to meet my fixed costs like mortgage, taxes, insurance, etc. and I fail. If deflation occurs and prices and consumption fall, our debt as a % of GDP rises (same numerator, smaller denominator) and we cannot pay our fixed costs to support it.

I firmly believe we cannot save our way out of the debt crisis, and debt at 90% of GDP is is a crisis. We have to grow our way out of this crisis by increasing our GDP. Since the middle class has been eviscerated by the exportation of manufacturing jobs I have no idea on how to do that.

And, before y'all start comin' out of the "I hate Obama" camps, take a good look at the attached chart. Then, ask yourself the question, "when did America start following the tenets of supply side economics without reducing government spending?"

The answer, btw, is 1980, Reagan/Bush. Remember H W Bush's comment when he was campaigning against Reagan for the nomination? He called this "voodoo economics". Thirty years later it has come home to roost. Get out the chicken bones and incense, maybe that will break the voodoo curse.

Ya can't cut taxes and increase spending for 30 years without creating crushing debt.

Where did you get your formula for GDP? It is:
Y = C + I + E + G

where

Y = GDP

C = Consumer Spending

I = Investment made by industry

E = Excess of Exports over Imports

G = Government Spending

The only way the Feds are growing GDP is by spending, which is artificially showing a growth in GDP (a false economic recovery). Why else is everyone saying "I don't see it" when the economy numbers come out? And why is the GDP always getting revised lower?

True recovery has to come from consumers spending again, and that will happen when we pay off all the toys we bought during the good times. Companies start investing again and that will come after they understand all the bloated laws just passed the past year and half. And when we start exporting again, and that will happen when the labor market settles down. (Basically when the higher salaries are reasonable again from an employer's standpoint.)

In the meantime, the rate at which the G is growing won't be good.

As far as Reagan goes, he was promised by a Democratic House that they will reduce spending as a ratio of his taxes cuts. The Dem's didn't meet their promise. And!!! when Clinton was in office the Republicans controlled the House and the Senate; Bill was smart and moved to the center. Newt ran the budget the from '95 to '99 (most of Clintons terms) that why the deficit decreased. Hastert ran it during Bush's term and Denny was a big spender, that's why it increased. I should know, I live in Hastert's district. Glad he's gone. (I know he's out and Foster is in now, but it was the District Denny came from.)
 

dcsnomo

Moderator
XS-
Good post.

My point is that this problem we have is not a political problem, it is a fiscal policy problem. The problem started in the 1980s and has continued 30 years throughout Republican and Democratic controlled Congresses and Presidents. Both parties have contributed to the lack of fiscal leadership equally, they both own this problem, and they both need to fix it. We, as a generation of baby boomers, have been undertaxing and overspending from our late 20s to our late 50s and we now have a debt approaching 90% of GDP.

As to my formula for GDP, I know it is not textbook correct, but I wanted readers to understand that GDP is a function of unit sales and dollar rate at which it was sold, and that deflation in price with a reduction of unit sales is a double whammy that will be very painful.

Whitedust, I appreciate your optimism, it is a nice offset to my cynicism. I'm guessing you are younger than I am (I'm 57) and I no longer believe that a political change (Q4 elections) will fix the problem. We have had plenty of political change since 1980, and the problem just continues. Also, we need more than Wall Street profits, we need profits translated to domestic employment, and that is not happening.

And the problem is, government spending drives GDP, and cutting it slows the economy. Raising taxes pays off debt, but reduces consumer spending and slows the economy.

To my original point in the Harley thread, we have to grow our way out of this, but we have sent those jobs overseas and to Mexico. The economic engine that drove our growth in the post WWII era is gone, 'cause we wanted to buy cheap blue jeans and cheap cell phones.

Time to cash out and move to the UP, buy a bloodhound, a rocking chair, and a shotgun!
 
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anonomoose

New member
XS-
...
And the problem is, government spending drives GDP, and cutting it slows the economy. Raising taxes pays off debt, but reduces consumer spending and slows the economy.

To my original point in the Harley thread, we have to grow our way out of this, but we have sent those jobs overseas and to Mexico. The economic engine that drove our growth in the post WWII era is gone, 'cause we wanted to buy cheap blue jeans and cell phones.

Time to cash out and move to the UP, buy a bloodhound, a rocking chair, and a shotgun!

They keep saying that we need to move over to a "service industry" based economy. Well other than health care which the boomers will need, I don't see the money in that operation...and the loss of jobs ......good ....no I mean REALLY good paying jobs, are drained and still draining today.

We have two problems. We need to fix the job drain to cheap labor markets and we need to put an end to the housing crisis which nobody seems to want to do...or even perhaps KNOWS what to do.

One thing for sure is the banking industry has not helped this housing implosion. They would rather drop the price $75k to sell a home than to spend $10k to fix it up, paint it carpet it and landscape the place making it look like a nice home to live in. This of course just puts a spike in home prices and keeps the downward spiral moving. As long as that keeps going, your home prices will continue to fall like a stone. Appraisers in my area are REQUIRED to adjust their appraisal prices by a percentage scale that has been mandated by the FEDS. Of course their numbers are hindsite, but when the government says drop the appraised value by a 7% factor you are going to REQUIRE housing prices to continue to drop. Then factor in that most lending institutions mandate who does the appraisals, so they can "keep control" of how that appraisal is being "calculated" you will have banks able to control what they dish out mortgage rates at. Interest rates can fall to 1% and it won't matter....if the Seller can't sell at that price and the bank won't lend at that price, it is pretty effective in limiting the home sales and values will continue to "correct".
 
G

G

Guest
Good post, Moose, interesting article and point of view. Grub, my concern is not hyperinflation, my concern is deflation, that is, where the economy slows so much prices fall. Remember, Xgoods times Yprice= GDP (the sum total of all goods and services produced measured in dollars). If price falls it is because of reduced consumption/demand due to the reduced purchasing power of the consumer from unemployment, debt, reduced wages, etc. So, if consumption falls, and price falls, then we are screwed as total GDP falls.

In a micro view if I have to sell X number of rooms at Y price to make a living from my motel (gross sales), and both the number of rooms and the price fall, then my gross sales will fall below a level that is sustainable to meet my fixed costs like mortgage, taxes, insurance, etc. and I fail. If deflation occurs and prices and consumption fall, our debt as a % of GDP rises (same numerator, smaller denominator) and we cannot pay our fixed costs to support it.

I firmly believe we cannot save our way out of the debt crisis, and debt at 90% of GDP is is a crisis. We have to grow our way out of this crisis by increasing our GDP. Since the middle class has been eviscerated by the exportation of manufacturing jobs I have no idea on how to do that.

And, before y'all start comin' out of the "I hate Obama" camps, take a good look at the attached chart. Then, ask yourself the question, "when did America start following the tenets of supply side economics without reducing government spending?"

The answer, btw, is 1980, Reagan/Bush. Remember H W Bush's comment when he was campaigning against Reagan for the nomination? He called this "voodoo economics". Thirty years later it has come home to roost. Get out the chicken bones and incense, maybe that will break the voodoo curse.

Ya can't cut taxes and increase spending for 30 years without creating crushing debt.

I understand deflation. And yes it would be a total killer. Isn't this where the term 'helicopter Ben' came from. He is supposed to have said he would throw cash out of a helicopter to ward off deflation. There are few other tools to combat deflation. At this time I would call what we are in stagflation. I am in the grocery biz and I don't have to tell any of you that things 'across the board' are going up. Pack sizes are shrinking and the spool in your Charmin is getting bigger to let them put less paper on the roll. At the same time other things like lumber and steel are going down. It does not really matter because not many folks have much use for lumber and steel at this time. My payroll is actually going down because business is down and I simply don't need extra people standing around. I have not fired anyone - they just move on and don't get replaced. I am in agreement with you that deflation could happen but if it did it would be short lived and immediatley followed by massive inflation. I can't see any other alternative with all the money that has been printed. As to the rest of your comments you make some very good points. The only thing you left out was the devastating effect free trade has had on us. That is a factor never comtemplated during the Reagan years when VooDoo economics was born. We do not have a manufacuring base anymore. That fact will make a traditional 'recovery' impossible. Something new is going to have to bring us back. I have no idea what that could be. I want to share Whitedust's optimism but we are kind of in uncharted territory. I am very glad I am near the end of my monster business loan rather than just a few years into it. Debt Sucks!!
 

whitedust

Well-known member
The market bottom after each sell off has been higher each time. Good News. European banks have been effectively back stopped & stabilized the Euro. Good News. China has had a soft landing & Skylar is buying cheap gas because China is using less oil. Good News. Large Corps are making money dividends are very good. Good News. Emerging markets are still emerging. Good News. Corps have huge amounts of money in reserve. Good News. Large US Banks are very healty.Good News. BP stopped the oil leak.Good News. Election causes investment uncertainly. So so news but temporary. Unemployment is hovering around 10%. Bad news but will gradually decrease. Soft Housing Market too complex for me to understand & I don't know how to turn that around. Bad news & HUGE PROBLEM. Currently we are in a stock market Pause.Good News & we will move up from here especially in Q4. I know where we have been so I don't dwell on that. I spend my time on factors driving the stock market in the near future & that is my focus. I'm comfortable with a Market Pause & a sell off as I said bottom is always higher & action of market going higher. I have an appetite for reasonable risk because the reward is great. Politically Dems & Reps have to work together they are not & Obama didn't even try because he didn't have too HUGE MISTAKE for him & his party. Its not negative to pull back PAUSE reassess then move forward again. Straighten out housing & the sky is the limit & Unemployment will drop like a rock to acceptable levels as consumer goes on a spending spree. Housing is a mess & is holding everything back & I'm looking for the answer to that problem.
 

anonomoose

New member
The market bottom after each sell off has been higher each time. Good News. European banks have been effectively back stopped & stabilized the Euro. Good News. China has had a soft landing & Skylar is buying cheap gas because China is using less oil. Good News. Large Corps are making money dividends are very good. Good News. Emerging markets are still emerging. Good News. Corps have huge amounts of money in reserve. Good News. Large US Banks are very healty.Good News. BP stopped the oil leak.Good News. Election causes investment uncertainly. So so news but temporary. Unemployment is hovering around 10%. Bad news but will gradually decrease. Soft Housing Market too complex for me to understand & I don't know how to turn that around. Bad news & HUGE PROBLEM. Currently we are in a stock market Pause.Good News & we will move up from here especially in Q4. I know where we have been so I don't dwell on that. I spend my time on factors driving the stock market in the near future & that is my focus. I'm comfortable with a Market Pause & a sell off as I said bottom is always higher & action of market going higher. I have an appetite for reasonable risk because the reward is great. Politically Dems & Reps have to work together they are not & Obama didn't even try because he didn't have too HUGE MISTAKE for him & his party. Its not negative to pull back PAUSE reassess then move forward again. Straighten out housing & the sky is the limit & Unemployment will drop like a rock to acceptable levels as consumer goes on a spending spree. Housing is a mess & is holding everything back & I'm looking for the answer to that problem.

Whitey...I hate to say it but this is sounding more and more like, a Dale Carnegie Seminar, everything is good and don't worry about it...if you think it than it must be so.....

For those of us who have lived thru a bunch of these ups and downs, there are some very strickingly different things going on than has EVER happened before.

FEDS out of room to drop rates. FED spending at a record pace and so far has NOT done the job. Importation of cheaper goods that were produced in countries that don't care if we live or die. For the first time in history, we have lost so much manufacturing jobs it is positively scarey.

I like to think positive if there is more than lip service happening at least SOMEWHERE in the USA. But the facts are that the best we can say for anywhere in these united states is that some areas are getting by, while others notibly those industrial areas that historically led us OUT of these types of messes...is hurting and shows no signs of recovering. Furthermore if I were a going business, I would hord cash too, because to have cash is to survive...to throw caution to the wind and hire away speculating that "gee, I'm okay if your okay" behavior will get out out of business in a heck of a hurry if you guess wrong.

The ONLY way hiring is coming back is when business feels comfortable in what they are making and competition, and it won't be happening until.

There is more than one reason to grow a big garden....winter isn't going to look too pretty this year.
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
Ahh, the old "the sky is blue" vs. "the sky is falling" conundrum. 'Tis what makes the markets go round and round and up and down.

Who's right?


Stay tuned, only time can tell.

When you fella's figure out all the answers, let someone that can do something about it know will ya? :rolleyes:

-John
 

whitedust

Well-known member
I posted a thread last Novish 2009 Dow Hit 10,000 now what? 3 ways to go up, down or sideways. It felt to me like sideways was more likely than up quickly & there would be up buys & down sells so what to do to go long? CDs were out of the question no profit there. Bonds for the most part peaked but ok & still ok. High Yield Equities was the place to be in best of breed dividend stocks & ride it out as I was aready 1/3 in high Q bond fund. So here we are now about Dow 10,000 + with Q4 on the horizon. I got out of Market completely June 2008 with rumors of Lehman failure & went to cash. My thinking was all banks were lying like a rug & they all did the same as Lehman so look out going to hit the fan best to be in cash. Got back in market May 2009 with high Q bond fund & kicked butt. Dollar cost average back in High Yield Equities 2010 also kicked butt. So long story short I'm in a very good position but always have my eye on the ball for next Q & half. Those of you who don't think we have hit bottom may as well give up. Gov can't spend us out of another dive no money to do so. Stock market is playing out for now the way I thought it would & yes there is risk but I'm comfortable with the level of risk & reward. Unless something carzy happens I'm doing well. Housing bothers the heck out of me & I'm more focussed on that than other factors because still going down & needs to move up to increase everyones wealth. Solve housing & strong recovery will follow.
 

dcsnomo

Moderator
I posted a thread last Novish 2009 Dow Hit 10,000 now what? 3 ways to go up, down or sideways. It felt to me like sideways was more likely than up quickly & there would be up buys & down sells so what to do to go long? CDs were out of the question no profit there. Bonds for the most part peaked but ok & still ok. High Yield Equities was the place to be in best of breed dividend stocks & ride it out as I was aready 1/3 in high Q bond fund. So here we are now about Dow 10,000 + with Q4 on the horizon. I got out of Market completely June 2008 with rumors of Lehman failure & went to cash. My thinking was all banks were lying like a rug & they all did the same as Lehman so look out going to hit the fan best to be in cash. Got back in market May 2009 with high Q bond fund & kicked butt. Dollar cost average back in High Yield Equities 2010 also kicked butt. So long story short I'm in a very good position but always have my eye on the ball for next Q & half. Those of you who don't think we have hit bottom may as well give up. Gov can't spend us out of another dive no money to do so. Stock market is playing out for now the way I thought it would & yes there is risk but I'm comfortable with the level of risk & reward. Unless something carzy happens I'm doing well. Housing bothers the heck out of me & I'm more focussed on that than other factors because still going down & needs to move up to increase everyones wealth. Solve housing & strong recovery will follow.

But where are the jobs?
a 10,000 point Dow with 10% unemployment tells me that profits are not driving domestic jobs. Shedding domestic workers is driving profits, it should be profits driving domestic employment.

Making money with money has a different effect on the economy than making Chevys with money.

http://www.crystalbull.com/stock-market-timing/Unemployment-chart/
 
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