Economic uncertainty? (Is there really such a term??)

anonomoose

New member
Ok, I have a question. If we have deflation, our dollar is worth less, (or worthless, depending how bad) so goods are cheaper.

Wouldn't that bring some manufacturing back here, as multinationals with high reserves could make a killing on capital investments, and land for factories? Also, if pay scales are reduced along with deflation rates, labor costs will be down. Am I wrong?

On the corps. hoarding cash, I believe they will not spend it until they know what kind of tax rates, regulations, we will face, and they too are waiting for a bottom (deflation?) so they can maximize their investments/purchases.

I think saving will get us out of this eventually. As the prices continue to fall, people who have saved will start scooping up the bargains, and prices will start to rise again.

Am I wrong on any or all of these points?

A decline in general price levels, often caused by a reduction in the supply of money or credit. Deflation can also be brought about by direct contractions in spending, either in the form of a reduction in government spending, personal spending or investment spending or a combination of these. Deflation has often had the side effect of increasing unemployment in an economy, since the process often leads to a lower level of demand in the economy. opposite of inflation.

Savings doesn't stimulate the economy as it doesn't move goods or services.
Unemployment pinches the money supply by obviously having less to pay bills that you have coming in steadily, such as car payment, house payment and this puts people into a savings mode once they do get jobs.
 

mxz_chris

New member
What we have is a deflationary crash. Despite all the efforts of the Fed things are not improving. Yes, the stock market is over 10000. Whitedust has figured out how to make money on the market. Good for him, I wish him well. However, the stock market is not an indicater of main street America. Every resource Bernanke has is basically exhausted. The current administration has chosen to support some 'too big to fail' institutions with taxpayer dollars. Because of this 'investment' and other govt programs we are approaching the max out of our GDP just to pay our debt. They are all just about out of tricks and time. It is a house of cards. We have to go through the pain of a crash before we can heal. A reset if you will. As I said in my original post I believe they will do their best to hold things together until the fall elections. They have tried everything and it is not working. This is not just my opinion. There are many in business waiting and wondering just what to do. Yes, there is money on the sidelines. But it will be used for survival before it gets used for new purchases of equipment or anything else. At least for businesses like mine.

If you believe the conspiracy theories, as I am becoming more inclined to do, the administration will keep it propped up until the Repub's take over the House, and maybe the Senate, then let it crash. Then they can blame the congress, and say O had his hands tied, and there was nothing he could do for 2012 elections.
 

dcsnomo

Moderator
If you believe the conspiracy theories, as I am becoming more inclined to do, the administration will keep it propped up until the Repub's take over the House, and maybe the Senate, then let it crash. Then they can blame the congress, and say O had his hands tied, and there was nothing he could do for 2012 elections.

If they can't figure it out we will have much more to worry about than which party to blame.
 
G

G

Guest
There are many possibilities for the fall elections. There is certainly no guarantee that the Repubs will gain enough seats in either the House or Senate to matter. Even if they do the best we can hope for at that point is gridlock. However, gridlock may be better than out of control spending. Right now we are setting up for a lost decade, Japan Style.
 

anonomoose

New member
Right Grub housing deflation is the itch I can't scratch & a huge factor to strong sustained recovery. Housing deflation is the boulder we can't push up the hill & very complex problem. Not much anyone can do that I can think of other than hit bottom let it come back when it can come back. Gov & Fed messing with unquailfied housing loans is what lead to the smoking hole in the ground that we are slowing trying to climb out of. Anybody know how to solve housing?........I sure don't housing looks like an orphan nobody wants to shelter.

There are two primary issues with housing:

First there is very little inflation to cause prices to climb and get us out of the hole. Some areas of the country, (not all) are experiencing up to 75% of the mortgaged population being under water to the mortgage. We have NEVER been here before. Even during the great depression, the distance to fall was in the tens of thousands. People lost their homes to the banks and the banks resold at a few thousand lower than market and the whole thing kept going even when the huge unemployed numbers were rolling around.

Today we have homes with mortgages that are hundreds of THOUSANDS below water.

Secondly since building homes for customers means there is a demand for housing...we have to correct that issue too. No demand puts 1 in 5 people out of work. That number is huge. If you aren't building them, you won't employ those people and we just can't get the ball rolling until the demand for housing increases again. Prior to 2006-7, this was not a problem.

Even if you want to buy a home, you have to deal with regulations up the ying yang...compareable to yesterday when banks were safe guarding things to try and prevent foreclosure rates from climbing. But today they are running out of control, but try and buy a house...any of them, even ones the banks have. It isn't easy to do...and how stupid is that. Instead of making it easier to buy, they make it harder...dah....what brainchild is working this one out???

Here's another thing. There are people out there who still work, have been working and would be happy to trade up or down to move to another home...but they can't sell what they have so they don't. Why wouldn't a bank take a house in trade that had a lesser value than one that they are already holding and which continues to loose value? Nope...they don't do that. How utterly stupid can banking industry be??

The real answer here is to let the people who want to buy a new home or bigger home buy it and let them out of the existing mortgages. Secondly since all these mortgages that the banks hold aren't worth the mortgage held on it....ratchet the mortgage down to reflect the current value of the property without having to prove your income is in the hole and you are penniless to do it. People won't walk from a house they have equity in.

But right now...the banking industry is sweating it out and hoping that they can withstand the throng of people who eventually figure that with zero inflation (call it stagnation...if you please) and they are tens if not hundreds of thousands below water on the mortgage that sooner or later they will decide...by geez....no sense in paying huge payments on this sucker when we can go down the street and rent or buy another for half the price of the one we are now paying on. And when the hoards figure this one out then the banking industry is going to be in deep doo-doo....cause they can live with a 40% foreclosure rate on homes...probably not even half that many.

The other way to kill the downward spiral is to let inflation take off in a big way. Remember the Jimmy Carter years....homes were accelerating out of sight. Once that happens, the need to address underwater mortgages won't exist because they will all take off at huge rates. Of course retired guys will be crying the blues...as their incomes are fixed and they won't be able to live on those incomes long with rapid inflation.

So let people buy and let inflation rip....you want to fix it...that's how you do it and all the other crap except the loss of good paying jobs in industry will melt away.

We can all help each other weather this by buying American made LOCAL products and keep the cash local and moving....this is key.
 

mxz_chris

New member
But if we let inflation take off, won't it just be a recovery for thr banking industry? Yes, the underwater mortgage problem will go away, but people again won't be able to sell, because pay won't go up as fast as inflation. So it would just look good on the banks balance sheet. Again, am I wrong?
 

dcsnomo

Moderator
Third issue with housing-
One of the causes of the mortgage crisis was the introduction of unqualified buyers into the market, that is, people who historically were unable to qualify for a mortgage now could qualify because of the non standard mortgages being offered. The housing industry built homes to address this demand.
When the foreclosure crisis hit, these buyers again fell out of the market. Now, we have a problem of an increased inventory with fewer buyers. And this doesn't account for the likelihood of existing buyers to buy, there has actually been a reduction in the percent of homes owned.

% hsld owner 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009
All Households 67.4% 67.8% 67.9% 68.3% 69.0% 68.9% 68.8% 68.1% 67.8% 67.4%
 

whitedust

Well-known member
Ya the housing- mortgage crisis is a very complex problem dug a huge bad credit hole world wide as bad mortgages were sold from 1 bank to another. Prices tanked many people upside down & if we hit second wave of foreclosures it could get very ugly. I betting we don't as I took double dip off my table but could happen & that is the risk factor. Even those who own their houses can't sell now won't take devalued price. Turn housing around & many good things will follow.
 

anonomoose

New member
What about the prospects of commercial real estate crashing? Would that send us to inflation, or deflation?
Actually the commercial end always drags behind the residential. Why because the commercial depends upon a good economy and people spending. If people don't spend, then commercial can hold for awhile but eventually they will fold, so this part of the equation is still unfolding.

Remember that the economic downturn is NOT uniformally played across the country. Someplaces are weathering the storm better with less ill effect than others.

I know in SE Michigan commercial along with the residential has been hard hit and many huge places are empty. Still with zero rent...or very low rent at best, not that many foreclosures in the commercial end of things. Maybe they made so much that they no longer need the huge rent to cover the nut. But I suspect that it depends mostly on how leveraged out the firm that owns the buildings is. If they are multi-national, they probably are just writing the low-no rent off. If they are totally local, they are hurting for sure.
 
Top