Engine size

[momoney2123]

I don't think the manufactures are leaving much on the table.
well in the 2st arena any way.
in fact I would say if 1 good thing came out of the epa is all manufactures of all toys and cars had to invest heavy in to fuel delivery and combustion.
now we have 250hp cars as the norm 350hp mid level cars 160hp sleds.
now days it cost a lot of money for a extra 20hp on a 2 st the oem not keeping a lot on the table like in the old days with crappy transfers u could clean up in your garage after work for a solid sled length. pipes now are lucky to pick up 6hp at best good for a few hundred rpm .
motor performance is the only place I will say the epa did a good thing . most deff not there intention

I mean a simple head cut and piston swap on etec is 10-12 hp. Then the porting out there. Stock bore etecs running 175-180hp on dootalk with stock exhaust and intake. Posted dyno sheets from sled owners. Talking with builder his opinion is doo uses a somewhat odd head and piston design to intentionally leave some fuel unburnt. Which equals better emmissions and less power. He said if the epa wasnt breathing down there back they wouldnt be doing that.

 

[whitedust]

Does anyone know if epa credits can be brokered "sold" & transferred to another OEM to meet their epa production credits? I have heard Yamaha has been doing this for years. No 1st hand proof this is happening but I did hear from a very reliable resource within the JD menbership that is does indeed happen. So you may be riding your 2s due to Yamaha selling credits to your fav OEM. lol

 

[Hoosier]

Sure it's up to Yamaha to declare there own death but if the next 4 "new" models are all Yamacats the Yamaha faithfuls will move on like I personally am starting to do.
Can anyone riding the Yamacat say they really feel like they are on a Yamaha?....I think not.

Face it ....no one ever said they was on a Suzuki just because that was the motor in there Cat.

It wasn't THAT long ago Yamaha was in the conversation - SRX, etc. in late 90's (ok it has been 15 years).

I've read elsewhere that around the time the RX-1 came out, Yamaha saw the coming EPA regs as the end of the 2 stroke in snow and went full bore into 4 stroke, thinking everyone else would have to do the same and they were going to go ahead of everyone.

But it didn't work out that way - the others continued with 2 strokes and and mixed production of 2 strokes and 4 strokes, and basically handed Yamaha its lunch, and all Yamaha had left was the high HP, high mile trail rider.

Yamaha is a company that likes to be reliable but more than anything, doesn't like to lose money. With no market share, they weren't making money and the sled division was given a short lease from corporate and no money for R&D. So, they sat still and became stagnant. No new chassis for awhile, although some refinements continued (power steering, etc.).

What happened next? Well this is speculative, but the YamaCat may have been a way for them to get a new, competitive chassis, and probably make some money and show corporate snow is worth sticking with. They have also expanded their US-based snow engineering team. Time will tell if they get back into on their own or just provide engines and consulting to Cat in exchange for building them a sled. I like the YamaCat but I hope they stay in it.

 

[snobuilder]

With the fierceness of brand loyalty many hold onto, it will be a tough trail to navigate for Yamaha to convince there past owners that they are still connected to the same company they had faith in for many years.

I think it's tough to move on for many due to built up peer pressure that has them stuck in the mud for fear of ridicule for dumping the sled they been braggin on for a long time.

If Yamaha turns 100% Yamacat, or gives that perception, it will be a ready made pardon to cut ties and move on. Many have already.

 

[whitedust]

Sure it's up to Yamaha to declare there own death but if the next 4 "new" models are all Yamacats the Yamaha faithfuls will move on like I personally am starting to do.
Can anyone riding the Yamacat say they really feel like they are on a Yamaha?....I think not.

Face it ....no one ever said they was on a Suzuki just because that was the motor in there Cat.

Yep that is up to you to deceide ....for me the Viper was a nice joint venture sled but did not fit my riding needs so I was better off with Apex XTX. I'm 4s all the way & keep my sleds for 10K miles maybe more also like a relaxed riding position with occasional stand up, bust powder on lakes & Frs but mostly ride groomed trails & like midrange 160ish hp power punch to pass slow pokes. Viper didn't fit the bill for me but I would have no problem throwing a leg over a AC/Yamaha new sled to replace Apex. The Viper was not meant to address the Apex/Vector markets so for me I'm happy & can wait & see.

 

[whitedust]

With the fierceness of brand loyalty many hold onto, it will be a tough trail to navigate for Yamaha to convince there past owners that they are still connected to the same company they had faith in for many years.

I think it's tough to move on for many due to built up peer pressure that has them stuck in the mud for fear of ridicule for dumping the sled they been braggin on for a long time.

If Yamaha turns 100% Yamacat it will be a ready made pardon to cut ties and move on.

I'm not like that at all...... have owned all 4 brands & always looking for a better 4s mouse trap. 2s as said above really are not for big mile riders that don't want to do engine rebuilds, watch temp ranges, do compression tests to keep keep melt downs at bay. I much prefer gas & go 4s & not worry about 2s melt downs. To me the whole brand ID thing is weird to me .....buy whatever you want look for the best regardless of brand. Just bought 2015 loaded Subaru Outback yesterday my 1st Jap mfg CUV & have been GM guy for 16 years. GM did not have what I wanted so bye bye no big deal to me on the brand side & was easy to change.....again looking for a better mouse trap to suit my needs.

 

[scoot]

I do laugh at these otherwise seemingly intelligent, over the top brand loyal guys. I ride with several of them. They've been preaching their brand loyal nonsense so long, they're stuck riding machines that everyone knows they're not happy with. It would be kinda sad if it wasn't so flippin hilarious.
Then on the other side of the coin. There are the sheep who buy what ever the crowds buy, because they're incapable of making their own decisions.

 

[snoluver1]

What happened next? Well this is speculative, but the YamaCat may have been a way for them to get a new, competitive chassis, and probably make some money and show corporate snow is worth sticking with. They have also expanded their US-based snow engineering team. Time will tell if they get back into on their own or just provide engines and consulting to Cat in exchange for building them a sled. I like the YamaCat but I hope they stay in it.

Personally, I think the Yamacat has more to do with tax laws, export, and operating costs than anything else. If you think about it, Yamaha is a Japanese based company, but basically their entire customer base is in North America. They had to get in bed with an American soil company in order to reduce operating costs. I could be way off, but I doubt it. It's ALWAYS about the money!

 

[whitedust]

Personally, I think the Yamacat has more to do with tax laws, export, and operating costs than anything else. If you think about it, Yamaha is a Japanese based company, but basically their entire customer base is in North America. They had to get in bed with an American soil company in order to reduce operating costs. I could be way off, but I doubt it. It's ALWAYS about the money!

Sure always bout the money...no use any OEM mfg a sled that retails for for $20K in USA market for the reasons you stated. To me all OEMs pushing $13-15K USA for new sleds & peeps still buy them. For me I stay current by trading in & buying a low mile used cherry that keeps me in the game.

 

[Hoosier]

Personally, I think the Yamacat has more to do with tax laws, export, and operating costs than anything else. If you think about it, Yamaha is a Japanese based company, but basically their entire customer base is in North America. They had to get in bed with an American soil company in order to reduce operating costs. I could be way off, but I doubt it. It's ALWAYS about the money!

That may be a factor but remember Yamaha makes lots of other products here - ATVs, golf carts, wave runners, side by sides, so they didn't need to get in bed with Cat to produce here.

 

[snoluver1]

That may be a factor but remember Yamaha makes lots of other products here - ATVs, golf carts, wave runners, side by sides, so they didn't need to get in bed with Cat to produce here.

That's a good point. I just can't see the relationship being about chassis tech. It has to be something more than that. It Yamaha wanted a competitive chassis, they have deep enough pocets to just do it themselves.

It's also possible that the American soil relationship benefits Yamaha with the other products you mention as well. If that were the case, then the deal is really worth it!

 

[whitedust]

That's a good point. I just can't see the relationship being about chassis tech. It has to be something more than that. It Yamaha wanted a competitive chassis, they have deep enough pocets to just do it themselves.

It is not engineering & AR&D costs for Yamaha it is all about tooling costs to introduce a new Yamaha engineered sled in Japan. AC wanted /needed 4s sled engines looked to Yamaha for supply ....Yamaha need lower USA mfg costs ..... Yamaha is going to have to comit resources to help Cat with engine integration anyway so both companies took the big step to have a joint venture that would be benefical to both. This happens in the general OEM market place all the time you have this I have that so let's get together & produce a turnkey solution. Enter the beancounters & if OEM Agreement makes profitabilty sense for both compaines game on & the intended marketplace buys the joint venture solution with seamless support.....doesn't really matter the brand name if a good discreet product that sells. So far peeps been buying both branded new sleds so this OEM Agreement worked well.

 

[fusion]

I'm not like that at all...... have owned all 4 brands & always looking for a better 4s mouse trap. 2s as said above really are not for big mile riders that don't want to do engine rebuilds, watch temp ranges, do compression tests to keep keep melt downs at bay. I much prefer gas & go 4s & not worry about 2s melt downs. To me the whole brand ID thing is weird to me .....buy whatever you want look for the best regardless of brand. Just bought 2015 loaded Subaru Outback yesterday my 1st Jap mfg CUV & have been GM guy for 16 years. GM did not have what I wanted so bye bye no big deal to me on the brand side & was easy to change.....again looking for a better mouse trap to suit my needs.

Who gawd....you bought the LESLIE car. I mentioned one of those maybe ten yrs. ago and wife said she wouldn't be seen in it.
Now all ya need is the COEXIST sticker on the back and you can tool around as a flaming, tolerant lib every day.
I'll be the guy next to you on the freeway pointing and laughing at the dork in the next lane as I blow by in my a real luxury car.
LOL

 

[polarisrider1]

Who gawd....you bought the LESLIE car.
Now all ya need is the COEXIST sticker on the back and you can tool around as a flaming, tolerant lib every day.
I'll be the guy next to you on the freeway pointing and laughing at the dork in the next lane as I blow by in my a real luxury car.
LOL

You stated what most of us were thinking. The tree hugging commercial proves effective. All sled creds are lost.

 

[whitedust]

Who gawd....you bought the LESLIE car.
Now all ya need is the COEXIST sticker on the back and you can tool around as a flaming, tolerant lib every day.
I'll be the guy next to you on the freeway pointing and laughing at the dork in the next lane as I blow by in my a real luxury car.
LOL

Ok I'll wave bye back & send all the Thunderkitty & Storm sellers your way to you for my grins & giggles!

 

[Woodtic]

I R&D tools for a major power tool company. I currently have three power tools on my truck they gave me to test. They have their competitors name on them. They make tools for their competitors. As long as they are making $ they don't care. They don't care if they are #1 in sales. They care what their stock is worth. Your brand loyal consumers are a small group. Most of the guys I ride with,own more than one brand of sled,car, tools,and appliances.

 

[whitedust]

You stated what most of us were thinking. The tree hugging commercial proves effective. All sled creds are lost.

If you are going to use sterotyping then only 1 sled OEM according to your posts & that would Polaris that also has a side biz called Klim.

 

[polarisrider1]

If you are going to use sterotyping then only 1 sled OEM according to your posts & that would Polaris that also has a side biz called Klim.

Not true. Skidoo and Hmk also favs. Subaru is promoting tree hugging in latest commercials. What's wrong with the Buick Enclave?

 

[ezra]

Is one engine brand flat out faster ? Thats what matters

cat 3/4 ton turbo hands down

 

[ezra]

What's wrong with the Buick Enclave?

#1they took the money #2 then used the money to build more factory's in Mexico .
#3 GM recalls worst than doo's
but yeah when I see a Subaru I always think first I bet she is a great pool and dart player.