Groomer or Grooming issue north of Mosquito
- Thread starter euphoric1
- Start date
favoritos
Well-known member
The signs on the side of the trail are still there too.
We ride trails up there fairly often and conditions can vary quite a bit when you see those signs along various trails. Sometimes the snow is different too. Equipment, speed, and time of groom are all factors.
It's easy to point fingers at a club. I think it's wrong in most cases. As stated, things change fast with traffic. That is a high traffic area and those trails don't really get time to set up after a groom. The level of smooth is usually a direct relationship to amount of time after the groom.
Equipment issues happen. I get that, and some of those machines put on serious hours. It does seem like there is less long term down time with equipment. Is that correct?
I hear about sled types all the time. I'm sure it is a factor, but the lever thingy on the right thumb does more.
I love riding up there and I also know that sometimes trails might be a challenge. It usually comes down to gritting the teeth and getting to the next section.
I probably sound like a fool, but I treat a rough section of trail kinda like life. It's not all smooth sailing and I can't control all the bumps. But, . . . the good stuff is worth the ride.
ICT Sledder
Active member
I don't think anyone would argue that the longer track sleds with the big lugs are a major contributor to the inability to clubs of keep trails in a smoother state of grooming. It'd be like arguing for the existence of a flat earth. And unfortunately, all the Billy Badasses out there now are mostly NOT on trail length sleds, so all those guys are out trying their best to disprove their inadequate manhood lengths are doing it with more track length and lug size than ever before. It's a fun game to those guys to see just how bad their group can destroy a good trail in the shortest amount of time possible.
Honestly, what needs to happen is a similar thing that has happened in the ATV/SBS trails across the country. Many trails are limited to machine widths of X. If yours exceeds X then you need to find a different place to ride. That needs to happen in the northwoods, and limit sleds to the crossover lengths. Keep your off trail machine off of the trail. Seems like obvious and basic logic. Could do the same with track lug size. Seriously... why are you riding your snowmobile equivalent of Big Foot on the snowmobile equivalent of a street? And what are you trying to prove by pinning the throttle on corner exit so you can blow it out. I can teach my wife how to do that for goodness sakes. Here's your cookie and gold star Mr Small P----.
Honestly, what needs to happen is a similar thing that has happened in the ATV/SBS trails across the country. Many trails are limited to machine widths of X. If yours exceeds X then you need to find a different place to ride. That needs to happen in the northwoods, and limit sleds to the crossover lengths. Keep your off trail machine off of the trail. Seems like obvious and basic logic. Could do the same with track lug size. Seriously... why are you riding your snowmobile equivalent of Big Foot on the snowmobile equivalent of a street? And what are you trying to prove by pinning the throttle on corner exit so you can blow it out. I can teach my wife how to do that for goodness sakes. Here's your cookie and gold star Mr Small P----.
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All true! As my father told me many times, You'll perhaps find a lot more disappointments in life, than satisfactions.The signs on the side of the trail are still there too.
We ride trails up there fairly often and conditions can vary quite a bit when you see those signs along various trails. Sometimes the snow is different too. Equipment, speed, and time of groom are all factors.
It's easy to point fingers at a club. I think it's wrong in most cases. As stated, things change fast with traffic. That is a high traffic area and those trails don't really get time to set up after a groom. The level of smooth is usually a direct relationship to amount of time after the groom.
Equipment issues happen. I get that, and some of those machines put on serious hours. It does seem like there is less long term down time with equipment. Is that correct?
I hear about sled types all the time. I'm sure it is a factor, but the lever thingy on the right thumb does more.
I love riding up there and I also know that sometimes trails might be a challenge. It usually comes down to gritting the teeth and getting to the next section.
I probably sound like a fool, but I treat a rough section of trail kinda like life. It's not all smooth sailing and I can't control all the bumps. But, . . . the good stuff is worth the ride.
ICT, Sledder, you are absolutely spot on! Inadequate, eh! LMAO, that is perfect, along with the"cookie"!
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favoritos
Well-known member
I sure hope we don't go the direction of more rules.
The dirt side did that to stop the full size vehicles. It was important to keep access. I sorta understand the reasoning.
There is plenty of room for big lugs and long tracks. Those don't make the problems unless the operator chooses.
I honestly think our biggest issue is respect. If we respect the fresh groom it lasts longer. If we respect the land owner it's easier to use the land. There is a long list of things that would be easier for us if we put respect in the sentence.
The dirt side did that to stop the full size vehicles. It was important to keep access. I sorta understand the reasoning.
There is plenty of room for big lugs and long tracks. Those don't make the problems unless the operator chooses.
I honestly think our biggest issue is respect. If we respect the fresh groom it lasts longer. If we respect the land owner it's easier to use the land. There is a long list of things that would be easier for us if we put respect in the sentence.
dfattack
Well-known member
I agree with what you said, not to say the comments on long tracks aren't true but if you respect a fresh groom even with long tracks the trails will be fine. Limiting a particular size sled might not be the way to go. Consider when all we had was 121" tracks. Would crossover been banned back then?
My years on the trails have shown me that traffic and warmer temps are the two biggest enemies of nice trails. I personally love to ride when it's below 20 for highs which helps with reducing the moguls...and riding in areas other than where the thread is discussing. Hardly ever ride in those areas for the reasons mentioned. Many in this area are simply using the trails to get to their off trail play pens and not necessarily trail riding. I don't do off trail. Don't want to get stuck and burn 2,000 calories getting unstuck!
Yeah, well, as to the trails will be fine, eh? I can't help but to differ with you on that. Follow a group of 4, or 5, deep lug, long tracks down the trail, then tell me that again. And yes, it is by far worse in thawing conditions. Then throw in the fact that in those conditions it is very difficult to groom what so ever. Lug depth, and the high number of sleds equipped as such are the 2 big issues. No way around that being FACT. I know off trail riders that don't even use the trail system, at all, if they can avoid doing so. This as they well know what happens. And the very best part of this is that many of these deep lug, off trail riders, that do use the trails, complain that they have to pay the same amount $$$ as "pure trail" riders do for trail permits! It is what it is, whether you like it or not. So, again, with that, I say so what! Ride, enjoy, and always be safe!
I have been behind deep lug riders and for the most part they were going slower than I wanted to go on 2 grade. Lots of snow dust but didn’t seem to tear up the trail more than a trail sled. We stay away from the area referenced for the grooming issues mentioned. Once a trail gets severely moguled it’s not going to be baby ass smooth until many passes by the groomer and additional snow. Since 109 was shut down we have little reason to ride beyond Greenland and this is also a contributing factor to additional traffic thru the beat area. I miss the Greenland loop but hardly worth taking a beating back to Greenland and to 3 to BC. Imo ride any style of sled you want on groomed trails, any hp you want from 60 to 200+ we all are entitled to ride groomed trails. If an area ain’t groomed and there is a pattern of poor grooming I’m gone. There are so many fantastic trails to ride in WI and MI just broaden your trail horizons find something new.
this x100.
Here is what I have put together...
Keewenaw is responsible for trail from houghton down to toivola (where skeet is roughly). I do follow M&M powersports on facebook (they do a great job of spreading information - suggest you too give them a follow). Dec 27th "THANKS TO TRAIL BOSS XXXX FOR HELPING PUT THE MATS DOWN ON THE BRIDGE" you can see from the pictures as well they have what looks like a groomer there (im sure it was used for much of the day - maybe more? idk im not a groomsman). Regardless it sounds like the unit was being used on the 27th.
25th+ 26th - this is xmas time. No one wants to be out grooming trail at 11pm instead of with family. If it was $hit those days im honestly glad to hear it... means they were hopefully at home with family celebrating.
27th - bridge mat was being put down - to avoid someone else starting a thread of "WhY IsNt ThE MaT DoWn YeT!?!?" we all know that question gets asked more often every year.
28th - who knows? maybe limited crew due to C word... maybe everyone was all hands on deck for the bridge mat day?
31st - new years eve... ya again dont blame them it was rough.
As for the rest of the week until new years im sure they did their best to accommodate sub par snowfall this time of year and did what they could. Possibly people were traveling (who were qualified to run the units) - i dont think this is a job for anyone... its not their life either. They do it for the enjoyment and the pride as someone else stated (ive become fond on thank those who show up in todays society rather than complain).
We all know how busy that week is... lots of sleds... vast range of experience (throttle control, who has respect etc). I dont think it was great snowfall to attract your typical crowd of "off trail billys" as someone stated... so maybe your "fact" of blaming long tracks can be "checked". Unless you sat out in the freezing cold and counted the sleds last week (doubtful) sounds about as bad as CNN on reporting.
Ive riden eagle river for years in the past... end of the day it was sometimes dreadful coming back to wash boards... well stand up and bite your lip and go on. Pretty sure there arent many long tracks / deep luggers around there... Just saying. Contrary ive ridden out west alot where only deep lug long tracks ride trail... No issues on washboards and this is sometimes 3-5 days without grooming in between. If your behind them can be annoying being pelted by large chunks - ill give ya that... but causing washboarding is a stretch. JD even stated by Mohawk hes seen it happen in hours... you mean to tell me in 2 hours every long track had this idea to go hit that trail... Heres your answer: No.
Once the washboard starts... it gets worst with every sled regardless of length.
Im sure the OP had no intention of calling out the grooming committee for this section. In years past I too remember it being a nightmare sometimes to from south range to houghton... Throw an extra $20 in the can at the next stop for fund money on that section. I always tipped the good (to keep them good) and even the bad (in hopes of maybe it will bring it to good!).
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Hmmmm, perhaps mistaken, or misleading? As you have misconstrued what has been posted.
ICT Sledder
Active member
Not trying to start a flame war, but the premise that a mountain sled with massive lugs has the same impact on a groomed trail as a common trail sled, variables controlled with the same weight rider, same HP, and applying the same throttle and braking inputs, is completely ridiculous.
Does a trail sled also have the same flotation on deep, loose powder as a mountain sled? If you hold the above to be true, then you must also hold this to be true too. But no one would because it is also completely ridiculous.
Does a trail sled also have the same flotation on deep, loose powder as a mountain sled? If you hold the above to be true, then you must also hold this to be true too. But no one would because it is also completely ridiculous.
goofy600
Well-known member
Everyone on this thread has valid points but in all honesty it comes down to quality, amount and timing of when things are groomed. Sleds, snow conditions and all that make a difference but that big of a difference at a turn around point is flat out grooming quality. Maybe north section didn’t get started as soon and now base is set up different, or maybe just the opposite, doesn’t mean it can’t be fixed or is going to stay this way all year just means club is going to have a lot of work to get it back in shape. I don’t have a ton of experience in grooming but I have seen it happen with my club and neighboring clubs. And yes if more people had a little more respect for the trails that would be a big help also. So the point is I’m not saying it’s a club problem just saying they now have there work cut out for them to get caught up to other club, and hopefully they can.
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Exactly, spot on you are!
