Long live all four brands

T

Tracker

Guest
Wong said:
If you had read the whole statement and put some intelligent thought into my statement, maybe your reply would have come across as something above the 5th grade level. The vast majority of snowmobilers these days are sheep and can't look at OTHER snowmobile manufacturers because there family, friends or media tell them this is the brand to buy. I would be willing to bet you're one of them SLACKER:onthego:
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I figured ya would know that was all in fun dare wongster....heres my response....LOL

really.jpg
 
J

journeyman

New member
I know an editor for one of the sled magazines. I was talking with him the other night about the 5 year contract that Yamaha/Arctic Cat have together. 2018 would be the last year of that contract but it now sounds like that has been extended. We also talked about Yamaha's 500 4s Phazer motor. I was wondering if it will ever be put into the Cat skid, he told me Cat wanted to but Yamaha wanted too much $$ for it. But it did sound like they might have wanted to boost up the power a bit, like 10-15 HP to compete with the 900 ACE lineup. Maybe that's where the money factor came in.

As for the weather.......yeh not good for the sled market at all. Who knows how this will all play out. I sure would hate to see any of them pull out. That would be really bad for the sport.
 
H

Hoosier

Well-known member
grub said:
It will just be 'Doo and Poo. Maybe Yami will put 4 strokers in Poos when Textron pulls the plug.
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Textron paid 40% over market price for Cat. Why would they pull the plug? Cat was the only company of the 4 that still makes a big chunk of its revenue from snow. All I've ever heard is Cat's dirt products aren't exactly market leaders, so I doubt they were buying for that. Textron is a much bigger company than Yamaha Doo or Poo. I don't see what they were after if not a new market to be in.
 
G

G

Guest
momoney2123 said:
To my understanding a 3 cyl 4 stroke will not come close to fitting in the axys chassis, let alone a 4 cyl.

Same with Doo's G4....they will need to make a wider gen 4 chassis to accommodate the 4 stroke line.
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I am quite sure you are correct about the current state of affairs with this motor not fitting in that frame etc etc etc. I was thinking more of the future and the next generation of sleds.
 
T

Tracker

Guest
Hoosier said:
Textron paid 40% over market price for Cat. Why would they pull the plug? Cat was the only company of the 4 that still makes a big chunk of its revenue from snow. All I've ever heard is Cat's dirt products aren't exactly market leaders, so I doubt they were buying for that. Textron is a much bigger company than Yamaha Doo or Poo. I don't see what they were after if not a new market to be in.
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I think I know whats ahead....its like this....for 25 years Suzuki EFI has been tested overseas in all manners of vehicles....but what they found out is....due to limited parking and owner fees and price per liter of gas....a lot want a street legal ATV....Textron got word of this since cat and zuk were working on this for years and years....soon you will see CAT street legal ATVs and WILDCATS that are EFI with turn signals and all car comforts....this is what I believe they are aiming for....70mpg EFI street legal toys....new market
 
G

G

Guest
Hoosier said:
Textron paid 40% over market price for Cat. Why would they pull the plug? Cat was the only company of the 4 that still makes a big chunk of its revenue from snow. All I've ever heard is Cat's dirt products aren't exactly market leaders, so I doubt they were buying for that. Textron is a much bigger company than Yamaha Doo or Poo. I don't see what they were after if not a new market to be in.
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The reason they would pull the plug is that they will have to make a huge investment to gain any ground against 'Doo. Like them or not 'Doo is fully committed and they build some great snowmobiles. And investing a pile of money in a market where sales are shrinking is not something smart companies do. Textron did not buy AC because they are nice guys. They bought AC to make money. Whether it is the dealer network they are after or maybe some of the DI tech AC has with their new 600s and 800s. AC's summer toys are not that good either. A huge makeover looming there also. Even if Textron decided to build the best powersports products ever built it would take years to catch and pass current industry leaders. Textron does not have a history of this. You are correct in your assessment that AC is the only one of the four left that sleds are the main source of revenue. However do you know how much they make on sleds? If you drive through TRF right now today there is a huge lot on the north side of town full and overflowing with crated non current sleds. Like about 1000 units. Just some really simple math - Textron got 10 million bucks of non current sleds in the deal.
 
S

Skylar

Super Moderator
Staff member
Have you driven a new Bad Boy Stampede sxs, that's owned by Textron? I have, and It's very impressive for the first try. They have sport sxs coming soon also. It won't take years to catch up, their already there.
 
H

Hoosier

Well-known member
grub said:
The reason they would pull the plug is that they will have to make a huge investment to gain any ground against 'Doo. Like them or not 'Doo is fully committed and they build some great snowmobiles. And investing a pile of money in a market where sales are shrinking is not something smart companies do. Textron did not buy AC because they are nice guys. They bought AC to make money. Whether it is the dealer network they are after or maybe some of the DI tech AC has with their new 600s and 800s. AC's summer toys are not that good either. A huge makeover looming there also. Even if Textron decided to build the best powersports products ever built it would take years to catch and pass current industry leaders. Textron does not have a history of this. You are correct in your assessment that AC is the only one of the four left that sleds are the main source of revenue. However do you know how much they make on sleds? If you drive through TRF right now today there is a huge lot on the north side of town full and overflowing with crated non current sleds. Like about 1000 units. Just some really simple math - Textron got 10 million bucks of non current sleds in the deal.
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So they paid $250 million for non-current sleds and semi-direct 2 stroke tech? Not trying to argue with you, but I don't see it. Cat's dealer network has been shrinking, but maybe there's something there. I don't think Cat's sleds are far off from Doo, although the market share tells a different story (waiting for the Doo poms poms to jump in and correct me too). It wasn't long ago the M was seen as the top sled before Poo took over that market. I think they screwed up by trying to make one chassis to cover both trail and mountain but it seems they've caught up a lot in the last couple years, tech-wise at least.
 
M

momoney2123

New member
Hoosier said:
So they paid $250 million for non-current sleds and semi-direct 2 stroke tech? Not trying to argue with you, but I don't see it. Cat's dealer network has been shrinking, but maybe there's something there. I don't think Cat's sleds are far off from Doo, although the market share tells a different story (waiting for the Doo poms poms to jump in and correct me too). It wasn't long ago the M was seen as the top sled before Poo took over that market. I think they screwed up by trying to make one chassis to cover both trail and mountain but it seems they've caught up a lot in the last couple years, tech-wise at least.
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Heres a comparison of the latest and greatest from both for those who want a real world review. These are not my words don't shoot the messenger. But this is a guy who bought the new ctec and owns an 850 along with a thundercat.



http://www.dootalk.com/forums/topic/1408138-2018-arctic-cat-dsi-800-vs-2017-tnt-850/
 
M

momoney2123

New member
Hoosier said:
Do you mean to tell me someone on doo talk preferred the doo? C'mon man!
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Ok then go to HCS and read it...turbo Jamie. The guy didn't own a doo until this year while he owned cats and yamahas. I would bet there are more threads on dootalk about poo, cat and Yamaha than most websites. Just cause its called dootalk doesn't mean everyone rides ONLY doos and is DOO biased.

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ITs not like stupid TY where if you say anything bad you get banned.
 
H

Hoosier

Well-known member
momoney2123 said:
Ok then go to HCS and read it...turbo Jamie. The guy didn't own a doo until this year while he owned cats and yamahas. I would bet there are more threads on dootalk about poo, cat and Yamaha than most websites. Just cause its called dootalk doesn't mean everyone rides ONLY doos and is DOO biased.

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ITs not like stupid TY where if you say anything bad you get banned.
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Sounds like Textron could have saved some money if they did their internet research first.
 
M

Magnumb

Active member
XXX007 said:
Reason this ALL makes sense with what Kip said about Doo having the deal ready with Yami, is they were playing CHESS, while the others play checkers. They planted seeds for years down the road, and may have cornered the market with that proposal. I kid with the Yam 4-stroke riders, but I know from experience those ARE the best motors in the business, and 4-strokes aren't going away.
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It's funny how 4-strokes cornered the market in the outboard motor segment as of late. Yamaha decided commit to 4S and they marketed it as better in all aspects and people took the bait and their marketing dollars paid off as now a large portion of bass boats are sold with 4S and now people automatically think they are better and people believe it even though most have never ran one more than a couple hundred hours.
I'm not saying they are bad, but they are not cracked up to all the claims either. If someone wanted to keep an outboard for more than 1500 hours or so then 4S makes more sense, but for most bass boats running big water 2S is safer and just more fun to run...after all these are just toys for most of us or least should thought of as such....
2S is also not going away either....check out the patent pending files for 2S technology from different manufactures... which probably means they are putting dollars back towards this segment including the diesel segment in automotive. Bigger dollars to be made off of 2S as manufacturing is cheaper and now it's easier to pass emissions with newer 2S technology. I bet if you asked Yamaha now if they would have strayed away from 2S knowing what they know they might have 2nd guessed it.
Knowledge is a powerful thing....but often the truth cant overwhelm well meaning fiction and people get sucked in by the hype all the time.
 
M

Magnumb

Active member
4S outboards due help you sell you boat faster and usually for more $.... this is mostly marketing and public perception and typically nothing to due with actual performance and reliability factors. To get closer to what works best you'll need to talk to marine dealers and their mechanics and they'll usually help you without being biased. Any of the motors will get you out on the lake or down the trial....some are just better for your tastes or for certain situations. For me it's seems Yamaha is more conservative and that usually results in more reliable products and there quality control and build quality seems good at least from experience....Just look at Toyota, they take forever to make any significant changes and their products are reliable for the most part but boring mostly and this is necessarily bad especially for the auto market ... for me as a toy i use a handful of times I don't want boring or conservative. I want good power to weight ratio and good handling with decent quality control and Ski-Doo/Polaris seems to tick those boxes more than Cat or Yamaha.
 
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G

G

Guest
AC has been poorly run for years. There has been a revolving door at the CEO position. Their stock has been steadily decreasing. Rumor had it that the employees at the TRF facility were bringing their own office supplies and toilet paper with them to work right before the Textron deal was announced. They have some good products and they have been responsible for some of innovations in the sport. But it takes more than good products to compete in the powersports industry. They have abused their dealer network for years. Many have quit or been forced out. Arctic Cat is known mostly for sleds. Pol is known for many products. So is Yami, Honda, Kawasaki, and 'Doo. They are up against all the big boys and they have nowhere near the resources their competition does. Now Textron owns them. Textron who is huge with seemingly infinite resources. They are like Yamaha. Yamaha could build a wonderful new snowmobile from the ground up but they choose not to. If I were Textron I would certainly take heed of Yamaha's decision not to go head over heels down the snowmobile road. Lastly There is no pressure on Textron to keep building sleds. There IS pressure for them to make money. That stockholder thing. I don't know what will happen. But it would not surprise me at all if the end came for the AC sleds. THERE IS NO MONEY IN SLEDS. Just ask Kip.
 
T

timo

Well-known member
well its good to see you guys got this all figured out..
where frnash and the beating horse emoji,,, and where did I put that Tylenol,,,,
 
W

whitedust

Well-known member
All 4 OEMS need to limit their 2018-2019 builds to clean out the pipeline of non currents and they all have them. This sucks for new platforms but the non currents bang for the buck can not be ignored by end users. IDK what will happen but the market is shrinking and common sense for OEMs to coast ride out this slow period. Yamaha is actually in the best position to ride out a couple of lean years as is Poo. Both Doo and AC invested in new products need to move non currents and new units ASAP for ROI on their new tooling. All 4 OEMs need to build to units ordered in a given year which means back to Spring Deals after non currents are sold off. All 4 OEMs are going to have at least 2 off years to balance inventory to model year sales....no other way I know to match supply and demand. Anybody else have any creative ideas?...I'm listening.:)
 
M

Magnumb

Active member
whitedust said:
All 4 OEMS need to limit their 2018-2019 builds to clean out the pipeline of non currents and they all have them. This sucks for new platforms but the non currents bang for the buck can not be ignored by end users. IDK what will happen but the market is shrinking and common sense for OEMs to coast ride out this slow period. Yamaha is actually in the best position to ride out a couple of lean years as is Poo. Both Doo and AC invested in new products need to move non currents and new units ASAP for ROI on their new tooling. All 4 OEMs need to build to units ordered in a given year which means back to Spring Deals after non currents are sold off. All 4 OEMs are going to have at least 2 off years to balance inventory to model year sales....no other way I know to match supply and demand. Anybody else have any creative ideas?...I'm listening.:)
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I'm thinking a large insurance fraud claim of some type....or build the largest snow machine known to man for the whole state of WI and MI.

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timo said:
well its good to see you guys got this all figured out..
where frnash and the beating horse emoji,,, and where did I put that Tylenol,,,,
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This is what a boring day job will do to people or no job at all:)
 
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