Mpg

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lenny

Guest
I don't know Bruce, I think Indy has a good point there. Indy can go get another 1600 truck and be perfectly happy with his purchase while it suits his personal needs. Bottom line is it fits Indy's budget and he's happy with his vehicle as is Landoman with his Prius. Indy is a young man just getting going in the world while Landoman has been in the work force and established.

dcsnomo, the factors you mention are important and certainly have a bearing on individuals but I don't think we can call it an "across the board" standard.

I fit into Indy's category but am 47 yrs old and probably don't make much more money than Indy and I do all my own work on my vehicles,,you see what I am saying?
 

dcsnomo

Moderator
I don't know Bruce, I think Indy has a good point there. Indy can go get another 1600 truck and be perfectly happy with his purchase while it suits his personal needs. Bottom line is it fits Indy's budget and he's happy with his vehicle as is Landoman with his Prius. Indy is a young man just getting going in the world while Landoman has been in the work force and established.

dcsnomo, the factors you mention are important and certainly have a bearing on individuals but I don't think we can call it an "across the board" standard.

I fit into Indy's category but am 47 yrs old and probably don't make much more money than Indy and I do all my own work on my vehicles,,you see what I am saying?

Hey Lenny! How ya doin'?

My point was one of the logic process...Indy can't just take today's facts and go look, 10 years later it's all the same. No, it changes, and the older, least efficient vehicle will increase its costs at a faster rate than the newer fuel efficient vehicle. If the older vehicle has an efficiency disadvantage of X offset by a purchase differential of Y, what happens to the argument when the cost efficiency differential becomes 2X or 3X due to rising costs? Simple, it eats into the purchase savings.

Ownership benefit (OB)=purchase savings (y)-operating disadvantage(X)
10 years later it could be OB=Y-3X, which greatly reduces the value of Y, the purchase savings.


Oh, and remember, Indy didn't say his truck "fit his budget", which I'm sure it does. He said "If people just did the math...." and claimed it as a clear cost winner over a 10 year period using 2012 assumptions and costs for 2013-2022. Can't do that. The truck's costs grow faster than the Prius costs (assuming the batteries don't fail!).

See ya!
 
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lenny

Guest
I'm doing good bud!

still,,, it's not a "across the board" standard. Most people don't care so much about the math and live comfortable. In these days people are doing the math and staying away non-economical purchases and getting more out of what they have. I know of many people who never buy new cars. They buy used with about 100,000 miles and drive them till they are shot and never have a payment and are spending much less and than there as those people who want a new car every few years and good for them.

Point is, even with a trans or motor failure, buying a good used car is a better plan if you are looking to save money. I believe that was Indy's point and that my friend is logical!
 

radsrh

New member
I spend $40 a week on gas, or 140 miles per week. That comes out to $120 a month, or $1440 a year. Say I keep it for 10 years, that would be $14400 in gas for 10 years. My truck, cost $1600. Add that to it, you get $16,000 on the button. Your car cost $23,000. Say you're like me, and you travel 140 miles per week at 40 mpg. That would come out to $13 a week in gas, or $52 a month. That would be $625 in gas a year. Times that by 10 you get $6250. Add that to $23000, and you will get $29,250. Insurance probably cost the same i.e. old truck/new car. I just did the math, you still come out $13250 behind. My truck is bigger, sounds cooler, looks better, and can pull a trailer. If people just did the math....

Can't forget to add the interest being paid on the loan for that brand new car!

Indy Indy Indy Indy

If you READ what he posted he said he runs up north every weekend? How does that compare to your 140 miles a week? My guess is he is putting close to that one way just on the weekends. Now redo your math with the new milage in place. We have a 2004 2500HD and at the time a 2005 Mazda 3. We took a trip out to NY to see my sister in law and managed to fit what we needed into the back of the Mazda. At gas prices 2 years ago based on the miles driven we saved over $700 just on that trip alone. Now also look at the fact that he is driving up north every weekend with a family, hard to look the wife and kids in the eyes when you are sitting on the side of the road at night 120 miles from home because your old fix ur upper breaks more then it runs. Some times the price of new or newer is worth the piece of mind when its more then just you on the line when you break down.
 

radsrh

New member
Indy one other cost you did not add in. You have a 10 year span and nailed your price right at $16000, start adding in the cost of constantly fixing things. My 2004 with 130,000 miles is at the point where it is $100-$500 dollaring me to death ( used to be nickel and dimeing me but that time is long gone ) I have owned it since it was new and always have done the maintance on it, but now I am starting to replace all the seals on it, the ball joints, the front bearings, and the other day the starter was acting up, did the breaks once, on the 3rd set of tires and the list goes on and on and on and I am thinking twice before making 100 mile plus trips wondering where I might end up with the family by the road side.
 

dcsnomo

Moderator
I'm doing good bud!

still,,, it's not a "across the board" standard. Most people don't care so much about the math and live comfortable. In these days people are doing the math and staying away non-economical purchases and getting more out of what they have. I know of many people who never buy new cars. They buy used with about 100,000 miles and drive them till they are shot and never have a payment and are spending much less and than there as those people who want a new car every few years and good for them.



Point is, even with a trans or motor failure, buying a good used car is a better plan if you are looking to save money. I believe that was Indy's point and that my friend is logical!

Yeah, you're probably right. I'm just trying to help my 17 year old johndee.com friend understand that if he makes an argument based on mathematical assumptions trending over a period of time, you have to adjust the assumptions for the changes that you know are going to occur during that time.
 
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lenny

Guest
no arguing that, math is an absolute!

Radash made a good point about reliability after racking up miles and having the possibility of a break down with the family being stranded. I have a 2001 Town&Country with 252,000 miles. In the last year I had replaced water pump, ball joints, tie rod ends, sway bar bushings, alignment, tires, brakes. The only issue that was desperate was the water pump. All the other stuff was dependent upon other related issues. With the old van I could keep throwing tires at it because of a strut mount so I checked it out real good and replaced many parts before I broke something. The van had the slightest of a clunk so I replaced a few items that were close to going down and saved some serious doing it all at one time. I plan to take my family on a 2500 mile round trip to Norfolk to see my son, driving the old van, I also have triple A. I feel comfortable the van will do just fine. It uses a little oil. I have not replaced the alternator since I owned it so I will change that and a new belt. So ow I have all new rotors, calipers water pump, fuel filter and pump. If we keep up on the typical things that leave us stranded we can seriously reduce the odds of a sudden break down but you have to be willing to dig into vehicles and that to me is a valuable wealth of experience and knowledge.
 

Skylar

Super Moderator
Staff member
Add me to the list of people who buy used. I picked up a 2000 Intrepid R/T last July that was a one owner car, with all service records, that had 149,500 on it. It now has 169,000 on it, and still running great. I put an inner tie rod end on it, and a right side lower control arm. I average 25 mpg with. Will be putting a new timing belt and water pump into it soon also. Gotta love not having any car payments. :D
 

indy_500

Well-known member
indy three weeks in a month ?

Guess I wasn't as good at math as I thought! whoops!

Brings the total difference down $4800. That's still nearly $9000 price difference.

You can't say my truck will break down and the new car won't. My parents thought buying an 03 Ford Taurus with 85000 miles on it for my sister would be a great idea. $8000 of repairs 18 months later, I DONT THINK SO. My truck? Intake gasket, $30 plus cost of antifreeze. Everything else I've done is mostly cosmetic/accessories.
 

indy_500

Well-known member
I feel like an idiot now! LOL But still, $8350 ahead. Can't tell me you don't wanna drive this?
 

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xcr440

Well-known member
A vehicle gets so many MPG. Any vehicle can have issues. They all do. They all wear out over time. Any car can have a problem. I get that.

But, if a vehicle gets less MPG than another, it costs less to drive. That's a fact in today's economics.

It's all a matter of what you are willing to pay. 18 years old $40 a week? Probably sounds cheap. But if it was only $20 a week, that is saving you $80 a month. I know, it doesn't sound like much.

It does to me, $80/ month, just on MPG.
 

arctiva

Member
Ive heard europes diesels dont meet the epa regulations in the united States, ive also heard there fuel is dirtier aka more sulfur. Back in 2003 when i bought my chevy diesel they didnt have much for regulation besides in like california, where they had trucks with califonia emmission controls allready on diesels. My 2003 has no catalac convertor (or muffler now) that all diesels have now, My 1st tank of the lot netted me 22mpg and i saw that or a tad better till they reduced the sulfer in the fuel somewheres i think around 2006-2007 and that cost me at least 2mpg reduction on average. It was only a few years ago that all the manufactors had to redesign there diesels to meet newer epa regs again or they had to quit offering diesel engines. With the lower sulfur fuel,catalac convetors,engines that regenerate,have particulate filter and require urea Mileage has suffered. With 200k on the truck averageing 20 mpg on 4th set of tires 2nd set of brakes 2nd set of ujoints had the front end rebuilt at 100k all new shocks and a transmission adapter houseing at 89k and not haveing a truck payment for the last 7 years i'll take that deal anyday of the week versus dropping 50k on a new truck that gets 14-18 mpg with all the new pollution controls.

I dont see it being a conspirecy theroy or big oil involved, i see it as a air polution control method forced apon us and that cost us money as well as less mpg's. The auto industry didnt willingly add the polution control stuff, and the oil refineries didnt willingly reduce the sulfer in the diesel, and honestlly our politicians have no clue that the stream of black smoke i can layout the tailpipe is hazerdous and or damageing to the earth but the epa knows that it is and they lobby it to pass the laws
 

dcsnomo

Moderator
Guess I wasn't as good at math as I thought! whoops!

Brings the total difference down $4800. That's still nearly $9000 price difference.

You can't say my truck will break down and the new car won't. My parents thought buying an 03 Ford Taurus with 85000 miles on it for my sister would be a great idea. $8000 of repairs 18 months later, I DONT THINK SO. My truck? Intake gasket, $30 plus cost of antifreeze. Everything else I've done is mostly cosmetic/accessories.

Ahh, but your case is built on a new Prius vs. your truck, both vehicles must be driven for 10 years. Your case, not mine. Your case is not built on a used Taurus with 85k, it is built on a NEW Prius. To start with, the new Prius has $0 in repairs for the 1st 3 years (warranty). And, you are still ignoring the increasing cost of gas. Can't do that. Gas price increases affect the truck owner more than the Prius owner.

BTW, you might be right, but your "do the math" argument is flawed. You cannot ignore gas prices in a gas price based argument. You cannot ignore repair costs new vehicle vs. old argument.

Do the math!!;)
 

dcsnomo

Moderator
Indy math revised

indy math revised.jpg

Truck Prius Truck Advantage
Purchase price $1,600.00 $23,000.00 $21,400.00
Gas cost $28,763.43 $8,808.80 $(19,954.63) Uses your estimate of 40 mpg for Prius
Repairs $5,000.00 $3,500.00 $(1,500.00)
Total cost $35,363.43 $35,308.80 $(54.63)
Resale $100.00 $4,000.00 $3,900.00 KBB value for 2002 Prius
Net cost $35,263.43 $31,308.80 $(3,954.63)

Can't format it to line up, but first number/column is Truck, second is Prius, third is truck advantage +/-. assuming the cost of gas assumptions in the too small to read spreadsheet (sorry, can't post Excel here) the Prius costs $54.63 cents more to operate over the 10 years including purchase price, which means, they cost the same! AND at the end of the 10 years the Prius has value to resell, truck really doesn't. Prius is cheaper! More upfront, might be a budget buster, but cheaper over time. Why...gas cost

Oh yeah, I might be totally wrong, but Indy asked me to "do the math!"
 

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frnash

Active member
Can't format it to line up
Oh but you can! — You just have to use a table!

On the top of the message composition window, note the third row of icons — the ones that resemble a spreadsheet, the leftmost of which will create a table. The second will allow you to adjust the properties of a selected table, etc. (Just hover your cursor over each to discover it's function.) Table follows:

Truck vs. Prius
Truck
Prius
Truck advantage
Purchase price$1,600.00$23,000.00$21,400
Gas cost [SUP]1[/SUP]$28,763.43$8,808.80$-19,984.63
Repairs$5,000.00$3,500.00$-1,500.00
Total cost$35,363.43$35,308.80$-54.63
Resale [SUP]2[/SUP]
$100.00$4,000.00$3,900.00
Net cost
$35,263.43$31,308.80$-3 ,954.63

<tbody>
</tbody>

¹ Uses your estimate of 40 mpg for Prius
² KBB value for 2002 Prius
 
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dcsnomo

Moderator
Thank you, Nash! 'Preciate it!

FYI, if any of you did read the table Nash transposed a number in the truck cost, should be $1600. Math still works
 
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misty_pines

Member
Another thing that must be factored in when comparing diesels to gas engines is that diesel fuel costs usually 20 to 25 cents more per gallon than gas (give or take a few cents) which stinks for diesel owners.
 
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