Need opinion on 4 strokes

[harvest1121]

I must be the youngster at 46 and ride a Yamaha. 15,000 miles on YamaCat and have not changed skis yet but agree its the weak point. My Dad just bought a viper with aftermarket skis waiting to see how it handles. He is coming off a power steering sled so we will see. He has curves so might be aggressive for him but good and free for me.

 

[old abe]

its more the shocks and track angle settings...not the skis...go to SETUP TIPS FROM THE PROS at the bottom...like I always say...lengthen the limiter...get the track flatter on the ground...ratchet up ski pressure on front shocks....tighten them until its so stiff the sled does not move when ya get on it...steve martin is all aboot mountain sleds and sidehilling....but this also applies to trail riding...except the get on top of snow thing he mentions....center shock needs to remain soft or middle setting...and use dual side by side 4 inch carbides....not long ones at all..especially if no studs....8 inches carbide will push all day everyday and are no good....they create too much drag and push...they create fatigue at handle bars...and on and on....the track with lengthened limiter straps almost eliminates all push ALONG with 4 inch carbide side by side duals ONLY....CAT STOCK OEM SKIS are the best IMO...the same ones that come on an XF CROSSTREK...look at that width and specs....good luck with it


http://www.amsnow.com/how-to-tech/ask-experts/2018/10/ask-the-experts

Hey ezra, here we go again!!! You on that new ride better get with this guy!!! Remember you don't want your shocks to collapse cause your ski's will get TOO WIDE!!!!

 

[old abe]

grub, when I'm done in riding sleds, I think I'll just "ride away". Your perception is spot on!!!

 

[G]

its more the shocks and track angle settings...not the skis...go to SETUP TIPS FROM THE PROS at the bottom...like I always say...lengthen the limiter...get the track flatter on the ground...ratchet up ski pressure on front shocks....tighten them until its so stiff the sled does not move when ya get on it...steve martin is all aboot mountain sleds and sidehilling....but this also applies to trail riding...except the get on top of snow thing he mentions....center shock needs to remain soft or middle setting...and use dual side by side 4 inch carbides....not long ones at all..especially if no studs....8 inches carbide will push all day everyday and are no good....they create too much drag and push...they create fatigue at handle bars...and on and on....the track with lengthened limiter straps almost eliminates all push ALONG with 4 inch carbide side by side duals ONLY....CAT STOCK OEM SKIS are the best IMO...the same ones that come on an XF CROSSTREK...look at that width and specs....good luck with it


http://www.amsnow.com/how-to-tech/ask-experts/2018/10/ask-the-experts

Tracker - hope you are feeling better. Read your link. Thanks. After riding all last season I can say from experience that the single biggest adjustment that has the most effect is limiter strap position. I have a 129. The 129 suspension is a completely different animal than the 137. No matter what people have done to a 137 nobody can get them to transfer weight like a 129. That is the main reason I bought the 129. Fun factor. Anyway - if you tighten the strap AT ALL you lose a lot of weight transfer. Even one hole. So I have resisted that. I want it all - weight transfer, precise and predictable turning, and easy steering. No matter what I did with the Cat skis I wasn't getting all three. I have used Cat skis for years and I like them for their simple single keel design and they have worked well for me. But something is different with all that weight up front. Your Crosstrek Skis might be different from the AC skis I was experimenting with . They might be more of a mountain ski and are wider. That in itself makes a huge difference on a sled with this much front weight. Anyway I am happy now with my Mohawks. The only bad thing is that it is a little wide for my 2 place enclosed trailer. Have to straddle skis in the middle. Not the end of the world.

 

[Tracker]

Tracker - hope you are feeling better. Read your link. Thanks. After riding all last season I can say from experience that the single biggest adjustment that has the most effect is limiter strap position. I have a 129. The 129 suspension is a completely different animal than the 137. No matter what people have done to a 137 nobody can get them to transfer weight like a 129. That is the main reason I bought the 129. Fun factor. Anyway - if you tighten the strap AT ALL you lose a lot of weight transfer. Even one hole. So I have resisted that. I want it all - weight transfer, precise and predictable turning, and easy steering. No matter what I did with the Cat skis I wasn't getting all three. I have used Cat skis for years and I like them for their simple single keel design and they have worked well for me. But something is different with all that weight up front. Your Crosstrek Skis might be different from the AC skis I was experimenting with . They might be more of a mountain ski and are wider. That in itself makes a huge difference on a sled with this much front weight. Anyway I am happy now with my Mohawks. The only bad thing is that it is a little wide for my 2 place enclosed trailer. Have to straddle skis in the middle. Not the end of the world.

hey thanks grub....and as far as the limiter...I go one extra even....I take out stock one and drill a new hole so its longer by a tad...if not enough room then I get new limiter strap material and drill holes at stock plus one in between each stock hole and one longer setting that's not available on stock...and yes the skis are wider....use the 2016 XF CROSSTREK skis...different animal....and also if you can try the 4 inchers....you will notice that shorter actually bites better and rear tracks better and more stabile at high speed ramp downs before corners...not digging mohawks in anyway or you....its just what I have discovered at high speed trail riding and off trail leading....the wider skis lift off trail and the 4 inchers let you sidehill....and on trail the shorter carbides actually dig better since its not a long bar to slide on

PS....the short carbide depend on the front skis being ramped up and pushing upward and inwards...tight...along with flat track....now your on rails babay

 

[G]

hey thanks grub....and as far as the limiter...I go one extra even....I take out stock one and drill a new hole so its longer by a tad...if not enough room then I get new limiter strap material and drill holes at stock plus one in between each stock hole and one longer setting that's not available on stock...and yes the skis are wider....use the 2016 XF CROSSTREK skis...different animal....and also if you can try the 4 inchers....you will notice that shorter actually bites better and rear tracks better and more stabile at high speed ramp downs before corners...not digging mohawks in anyway or you....its just what I have discovered at high speed trail riding and off trail leading....the wider skis lift off trail and the 4 inchers let you sidehill....and on trail the shorter carbides actually dig better since its not a long bar to slide on

PS....the short carbide depend on the front skis being ramped up and pushing upward and inwards...tight...along with flat track....now your on rails babay

On second hole on strap. Can't go any further out because then the center shock becomes the limiter strap. Guys have wrecked the center shock that way. So I am kind of working backwards from there. I weigh 200 lbs with all my stuff on so I should not have to worry about different springs or revalving the QS3 shocks. Although the stiffest setting is rather worthless. As far as carbides I could probably go in to business selling them I have so many different combinations now. And none of them work on a Winder!!!!! LOL. I am a boring groomed trail high mile rider. I never sidehill and seldom break trail. I like light steering effort and I really believe that can be achieved without power steering. I have my ski shock springs cranked all the way loose so they are just tight enough to hold the clip on. Front QS3's on 2. Rear skid both QS3's on 1. I tightened up the center shock spring and that helped with low speed turning. It works. And you are right about the looser the limiter the faster you go. One hole is worth 5mph.

 

[Tracker]

On second hole on strap. Can't go any further out because then the center shock becomes the limiter strap. Guys have wrecked the center shock that way. So I am kind of working backwards from there. I weigh 200 lbs with all my stuff on so I should not have to worry about different springs or revalving the QS3 shocks. Although the stiffest setting is rather worthless. As far as carbides I could probably go in to business selling them I have so many different combinations now. And none of them work on a Winder!!!!! LOL. I am a boring groomed trail high mile rider. I never sidehill and seldom break trail. I like light steering effort and I really believe that can be achieved without power steering. I have my ski shock springs cranked all the way loose so they are just tight enough to hold the clip on. Front QS3's on 2. Rear skid both QS3's on 1. I tightened up the center shock spring and that helped with low speed turning. It works. And you are right about the looser the limiter the faster you go. One hole is worth 5mph.

seems center shock is too tight then....loosen that.....go one more hole out now....front shocks should be tight....I screw mine way up until only 3/4 of an inch to go and on my air shocks I set fronts at 120psi or 105psi....way harder than recommended...springs in back on highest setting so rear suspensions pushes on front for pressure and jumping and turning.....ski shocks should be tight not loose IMO....when you set sled on a trailer at eye height....the front should be flat on bed not raised up even 1 inch which almost all sleds are setup this way...limiter must be loose to achieve this and center shock must be pushing down to keep limiter tight...even though you don't jump or off trail you need to setup machine in this configuration and it will turn like its got power steering...and yes it can be achieved without EPS...which I don't like because then its way easy to roll and wreck IMO...especially at high speeds

 

[G]

What you are doing is making a very flat handling sled. Which is good for certain conditions. But it will ride like a brick. I don't want to erase my front suspension by tightening everything up. Already been down that road. I want it to teeter-totter on the front of the rear suspension. Which is what it does now. Yes on the fully extended limiter and tightening up the center shock to keep the front end of the track down. But I want to use the rest of the suspension. If I need a super flat cornering monster for use exclusively on the trails of NW Wisc I still have 3 of my old ZR 900's. They still work good there. Until you hit a bumpy stretch. Then a newer sled will shine. There are still a lot of old ZR's and XC's in use in Wisc. They were a good sled for their day. And when it comes right down to it they were just as fast as the new stuff we have today. Not as quick mind you. But absolute top end as fast or faster than a lot of the new tin. It takes horsepower to spin these long travel things we have now.

 

[kip]

All I can say is there is stuff in the pipeline fellas. Yamaha needs to do more, that I can agree on, but they aren't going anywhere, or getting out of the sled business. I'm right Sorry PooDan!

 

[Tracker]

What you are doing is making a very flat handling sled. Which is good for certain conditions. But it will ride like a brick. I don't want to erase my front suspension by tightening everything up. Already been down that road. I want it to teeter-totter on the front of the rear suspension. Which is what it does now. Yes on the fully extended limiter and tightening up the center shock to keep the front end of the track down. But I want to use the rest of the suspension. If I need a super flat cornering monster for use exclusively on the trails of NW Wisc I still have 3 of my old ZR 900's. They still work good there. Until you hit a bumpy stretch. Then a newer sled will shine. There are still a lot of old ZR's and XC's in use in Wisc. They were a good sled for their day. And when it comes right down to it they were just as fast as the new stuff we have today. Not as quick mind you. But absolute top end as fast or faster than a lot of the new tin. It takes horsepower to spin these long travel things we have now.

grub...this is not true,....you have the best shocks there are...just because you have them cranked tight does not mean it will ride like a brick....trust me....think aboot it....the pros have those shocks....and they provide suspension....they have them cranked even more so yes its like a brick on a race sled....not so on yours...what will happen instead is it will raise the front skis upward and inward....the inward action will offset the push as it hunkers down in the corner and the one shocks psi will increase on that side only.....and that inward motion will also make a 4 inch carbide dig and pivot....a longer carbide wont dig and will slide and then dig....thus the push....tighten them up front...leave all else alone for now except putting on high in rear and lengthen limiter to last stock hole.....now put on your 4 inch DUAL SIDE BY SIDE CARBIDES....only these work with this kind of setup...I have over 100,000 miles on sleds and tried all lengths or carbides and studs and all manners of settings....even tried a standard sled and moved the rear shaft that holds the long arm of the spring into the sno-pro holes....no worky....this will work....its just a leap of faith....the same one I had to make many years ago....it works like a charm....never going back since the new shocks can be tight and still function and soak up the bumps and not be a brick....its not like the old days....the single keel on cats OEM also provide bite instead of the 3 keelers which provide slip and push...you want it not to push...you do this...and it will be soft with the Q shocks...they shine in that kind of setting....it doesn't take long to set this and then TRY THE DAM THING...and try it for like a month or a 1000 miles....not just 10 miles and switch it all back....physics my man....physics....and sometimes the opposite of what you have always known is the new way to go due to physics and the study of it....back then they did not incorporate physics as much as we do today....they tried...but often got it wrong and we only learn that 20 years later after extensive testing....how do you think the alpha 1 came about....it also is opposite of all we have ever learned about slide rail suspension....the only reason it is on hold is possible lawsuits and ramifications if someone rolls it on a trail at 100....are they working it out...yes...does it work...yes....is it normal thinking...no....let us know if ya try it or not...I did and I love it...peace out

 

[Cirrus_Driver]

Tracker - not buying your theory. If the Mfg'ers wanted the shock to work with only 1/5 of it's travel, they wouldn't set them in the mid soft position from the factory. They have engineers that test these things too
Why would you pay for a premium shock and then only utilize 1/5 or less of it's bump absorbing, shock-travel capability? You may lay the tract flat, I'll give you that, and it may have forward bite and no push, but it will ride like a truck over stutter bumps.
Just like your theory on over-inflating tires to 37-38 PSI is bogus, so is this. Discuss - but there won't be a winner here.
You may not care about ride comfort as much as the next guy, and are willing to sacrifice comfort for handling - particularly given the high speeds you ride at, I'd want all the "corner-railing" I could get too.

 

[G]

Tracker - About how much do you weigh?

 

[1fujifilm]

Tracker - About how much do you weigh?

Don't forget your age, height and star sign (or just post a selfie).

Bear

 

[longtrack]

You won't need power Steering on a 900 Skidoo and it is only 20 lbs heaver than a 2 stroke 600. The Yamaha Motor is Bullet proof and so is the Doo 4 Stroke.

You can probably pick up a Yamaha cheaper but you get what you pay for.

 

[harvest1121]

You won't need power Steering on a 900 Skidoo and it is only 20 lbs heaver than a 2 stroke 600. The Yamaha Motor is Bullet proof and so is the Doo 4 Stroke.

You can probably pick up a Yamaha cheaper but you get what you pay for.

We have to wait and see about the motors in the Viper. They are not the same for some reason at over 10k having starting issues something to do with shims. I know had one with 13k that was doing it. Yamaha said you should not have anything till 25k. I know the Vector motor is great.

 

[bogiewheel]

Good to hear about the pipeline Kip, looking forward to it. Would like to hear more about the starting issue on the Viper. Is this a starter comment?

 

[harvest1121]

Good to hear about the pipeline Kip, looking forward to it. Would like to hear more about the starting issue on the Viper. Is this a starter comment?

Its something to do with the shims are out of spec there is a big article on it on Total Yamaha. Usually I do not believe much about these things but happened to me. It did not want to start when it was warm. I still did buy another but something that should be noted. I sold mine with almost 14k on it and still sold for $3800

 

[whitedust]

All I can say is there is stuff in the pipeline fellas. Yamaha needs to do more, that I can agree on, but they aren't going anywhere, or getting out of the sled business. I'm right Sorry PooDan!

Sure hope so Kip I need a new Apex xtx replacement with eps .....soon!

 

[Tracker]

Tracker - not buying your theory. If the Mfg'ers wanted the shock to work with only 1/5 of it's travel, they wouldn't set them in the mid soft position from the factory. They have engineers that test these things too
Why would you pay for a premium shock and then only utilize 1/5 or less of it's bump absorbing, shock-travel capability? You may lay the tract flat, I'll give you that, and it may have forward bite and no push, but it will ride like a truck over stutter bumps.
Just like your theory on over-inflating tires to 37-38 PSI is bogus, so is this. Discuss - but there won't be a winner here.
You may not care about ride comfort as much as the next guy, and are willing to sacrifice comfort for handling - particularly given the high speeds you ride at, I'd want all the "corner-railing" I could get too.

1st off tires ran at 5lbs. more than the mfg SUGGESTED pressure is not over inflating at all...especially if its designed for maximum psi at 51 or 44...over inflating is OVER the maximum....that's no good...but running 5 more only makes the tires last longer and some mpg gains...that's all

and the sleds are set at the middle on purpose...not because some engineer said too....the power band is set at middle....the rpms....the rear shocks...the springs...oil injection amount...all of it....its more of a warranty issue cover your azz thing

and setting the shocks higher....the new sleds are still comfortable as all get out....they only difference I noticed in 3000 miles of having them set tight....is when going over a road berm or a tall berm of snow if you don't hit at EXACTLY 90 degrees you can roll it as the one ski pushes super hard to offset this and it tips you ( I have since learnt to lean like a mofo or just go over em at exactly 90 all da time....the latter is what I do now)...but that trade off of having it rail at high speeds with no push and no handle bar wobble or fatigue is priceless

 

[Tracker]

Tracker - About how much do you weigh?

195 at docs office...so with gear on maybe add 20 lbs....and then I carry food and drink and supplies for a group to be stranded overnite if needed....all that weighs probably 20 to 30 pounds and I carry it in my back pack out west or in my saddle bags in U.P. so that weight moves from middle to rear....4 water bottles 3 ice teas or cokes for chaser scads of sardines and kippered snacks and crackers and hot dogs and buns and tow ropes and gas siphon hose and plugs and space blanket and medical supplies and tools and phone and go-pros 2 of them and mounts and extra gloves and some misc.

PS....the ride is soft as bejesus....and I can take 3 foot moguls at 75mph like nuthin'...and there is no push what so ever....just sayin'

I run no studs and have a 1.75 lugged 137 long with 4 inch dual side by side carbides on stock oem skis...which I believe are procross 8 inches wide but I will have to check to be certain...it does suk on trailer as it overlaps skis on the sled next to me...center to center is 42.5 wide but will have to check to make sure...I run the new back shifting clutch also and it adds pressure as I let off coming into a turn so it can bite...then just past apex hammer down again....but having the track flat is the one key thing that almost eliminates all the push by itself...it is called the VCI study that the military did on tracked vehicles...study it...VCI=vehicle cone index number...fastest= zero...best turning= zero....it is what it is....good luck and enjoy