No bashing just a question

[doo_dr]

A little snooping

I did a little Non Internet research last night/this morning. There are two confirmed reasons why the Etek's can have problems. 1st- Over Rev'ing. This is not only on the top end (8000 rpm is what they like) but mid range shift. 2nd- Oil. Use what they say or go home. Same as Polaris. Same as Cat. Same as Yamaha. Every oil is different and there are reasons for that. Some is the $ and a some are for specific needs of a motor. I hear people bitching that a 2 stroke has to use more oil than they are (Etek) and that low oil consumption will prematurely wear out a motor. Well, times have changed and synthetic oil has also. Synthetic by definition; chemically produced substance or material: a substance or material produced by chemical processes and not occurring naturally. They make that oil have exactly what that motor needs and nothing more. Why, because that is waste and hinders efficiency. I guess I have run every type of sled imaginable and I have seldom had any problems with a vacuum cleaner(stock sled). I have wrecked alot of motors in may day and I will take the blame. Maybe others should also!

 

[anonomoose]

Okay, in the interests of trying to keep this civil and out of the "brand loyalty" category, let's back track and look what this whole thread was about.

A rental fleet manager stated that way over half of his fleet of this motor and maker took a dump.

Why would he say that? Okay, maybe he hates doos....maybe he was embarrassed that one of his sleds took a dump on a renter and wasted the guys afternoon. Or maybe he was giving it straight...no matter what the consequences.

Yeah, I agree all sled makers have issues, but IF this above statement is true...and if you own one of these sleds, then it would be prudent on YOUR part or anyone else's that you watch out for this issue.

If a sled is SO sensitive that it over revs at shifting...how are you supposed to prevent that? Belts break...it is their nature, whatcha supposed to do to guard against that??

Also it couldn't be that the oil has been thinned out so much that it isn't doing the job....there have been threads on that too...to the point that some guys are adding extra oil right to the tank to keep up on the high side of lubing these high strung, and minimum use of oil machines.

It just could be that these machines can't take the licking that other sleds used to take.

Finally, if this sled motor can not take any other type of oil without granading then in the owners manual it should say so....and as far as I know (and I am no expert for sure) I have never read a manual that says...YOU MUST USE OUR OIL or failure will occur.

It might only be my perception, but it seems that all the talk or at least most of it, for motor failure by FAR centers around two strokes that are trying to comply with new tighter EPA restrictions. Don't know...but seems that way to me....

I hope this doesn't make anyone all defensive about their make of sled, or two strokes verses 4 stroke...cause that isn't the point of this thread.

The question was asked, WHY??? And that is what we need to stick to.

 

[tealracing16]

My personal opinion is if this is happening after a belt blowing you are spinning the crank bearings. We were dyno-ing a 600cc crotch rocket motor and told him not to go over 12,000, the dyno let loose and someone saw 16G's on the tach. Bearings toast. This happens a lot with sled motors out west or anywhere. If you take a load off of motor all kinds of bad things are going to happen.

Edited: Oh yeah, as has been said, they can only require the specs of the oil.

 

[doo_dr]

Why is the question

You can't swing a dead cat by the tail at a snow show and not hit a brand that hasn't taken a hit on the chin over engine problems so brand loylaty isn't an issue. As for Oil recommendations/requirements, read your owners manual. ALL say that if you do not use a specific oil you can/will void your warranty. Yep, Even 4 strokes.

I ask "why" after the base line has been established. That base line is what the brand requirements are (Oil, Fuel, Clutching, Altitude adjustments,etc...) I'm sorry if I confused people with RPM statements. To Clairfy. Breaking a belt and over rev'ing a motor is not what I was referring to on over rev'ing a motor. While it may cause some damage I haven't personally seen this type of event cause a motor failure. It has to do with specific clutch components. All of the brands have specific requirements for specific altitiude ranges. Here again you must read your owners manual take the responsibility to adjust accordingly. Fuel, sled warm-up, break in, maintainance, and overall care round out the base line. Then we can ask why?

I personally do not think this is an EPA issue. I think this is a " I want the lightest sled with the most amount of HP" issue and they all stepped up to the plate. In process they(Polaris, Cat, Doo, Yamaha) built light weight sleds with great HP. To do this they had to build very specific components that have very specific requierements. Then people don't follow the requirements and turn around and blame Polaris, Cat, Yamaha,Doo for their misfortune. There is no doubt that their are some production/engineering issues. To that I see all of the brands stepping up and trying to please the consumer as best as they can. But alot of what we are passing around is poor general consumer knowledge issues. I preach this but seldom see/hear that people pressure test motors before they tear them down. NO BASE LINE ON THAT MOTOR PROBLEM!!!

I own, or have owned, every brand. I have worked with every brand except Yamaha. My brand loyalty is with them all. I may be ranting and raving a little but it is because I want to have an educated exchange of ideas and theory. I do apologize if I offended anyone. That is not my intention.

 

[t660redrocket]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I wouldn't ever buy a "fleet" or rental vehicle - I "work" any rental vehicle as hard as I can!

Previous posters are correct - who lets a rental sled warm up? Jump on and put 'er go'in! I rode with a bunch that rented sleds up da Keweenaw way a few years back. One guy got a kick out of holding the brake while revving the engine until the belt started to smoke! Do you really want to compare the reliability of that sled with that owned by private party?

I have an 07 Summit 600 SDI that I bought on auction in 2007 that was part of a rental fleet. It had 3400 miles on it when I bought it. I just rolled 8000 miles on this year. I have never had to touch the engine. Compression is still 140 psi on each side. I run Citgo/Mystic Sea and Snow and pump gas with isopropyl. That's no BS!

 

[doo_dr]

I have an 07 Summit 600 SDI that I bought on auction in 2007 that was part of a rental fleet. It had 3400 miles on it when I bought it. I just rolled 8000 miles on this year. I have never had to touch the engine. Compression is still 140 psi on each side. I run Citgo/Mystic Sea and Snow and pump gas with isopropyl. That's no BS!

I love to hear that kind of stuff!!! Keep sledding.

 

[wisyooper1]

I have an 07 Summit 600 SDI that I bought on auction in 2007 that was part of a rental fleet. It had 3400 miles on it when I bought it. I just rolled 8000 miles on this year. I have never had to touch the engine. Compression is still 140 psi on each side. I run Citgo/Mystic Sea and Snow and pump gas with isopropyl. That's no BS!

Fair enough! Perhaps there are deals to be had on the purchase of rental sleds....come to think of it, I know some sled owners that beat the crap out their sleds - more so than someone renting.

 

[anonomoose]

I don't think that any maker can require use of only their oil. This issue has come and gone several times on this board....

As for let'n her warm up...back in 2006, I was having issues with a plug fouling on Polaris, and the dealer told me "don't let it warm up...." jump on and ride as soon as the light goes off.

Of course I didn't believe him and still say there was another issue there...which Polaris didn't want to fix...at least then, but quietly...oh yeah, don't yah love it....switched plugs in the following years on the same motor.

And like wiseguy says....many just jump on and ride even if they own the sled, and if the sled can go bad it will doing that. But few seem to do that, and I suspect that the makers know that many won't follow directions, and account for it in the design and construction of the motors. Otherwise they would be swamped with fixing engines...all 3 months long.

 

[freezinbevr]

I have an 07 Summit 600 SDI that I bought on auction in 2007 that was part of a rental fleet. It had 3400 miles on it when I bought it. I just rolled 8000 miles on this year. I have never had to touch the engine. Compression is still 140 psi on each side. I run Citgo/Mystic Sea and Snow and pump gas with isopropyl. That's no BS!

Daryl, My thoughts exactly!! I have an '03 Yami rental sled I bought 1 year old and has been flawless!
I just hope the new 600 2011 Etec I got this year is as good/better. Still gonna buy the 4 year warranty for piece of mind tho!

Give er one more shot next to Canada tomorrow night and the weekend!

Brad

 

[polarisrider1]

You guys with rental sleds are the lucky few. I have seen first hand what the bulk of them go thru. Idle all morning and newbies running down bare roads,etc. Some rentals that are buried deep in the pack get little use and luck has it you may get one. As a whole rentals are NOT treated well.

 

[Skylar]

Hence the phrase, "ride it like a rental!" LOL.

 

[Attak man]

I believe there is something called the magnuson act (sp)
no manufacturer can make u use their oil during
a warranty period unless they provide it for free.

 

[polarisrider1]

Hence the phrase, "ride it like a rental!" LOL.

Exactly.

 

[snoeatr]

We beat the sleds for 3-4 months, let em sit for 9 months, then get them out for another lashing! How's it different if the sled is a rental? Rentals are beat for 3-4 months then sold. Meanwhile all the damaged body parts are replaced for renters mistakes at their cost and its serviced and checked out by a mechanic when it comes in. Now if it was ridden like it was stolen that would be a different story.

 

[Deleted member 10829]

I heard of another rental place out west that has had 11 of their 15 800 Etek's go down.

 

[whitedust]

I believe there is something called the magnuson act (sp)
no manufacturer can make u use their oil during
a warranty period unless they provide it for free.

True.... True but my new Evinrude Etek 150 will see nothing but BRP 50 oil since I can't find anyone using anything different & very risky to dump somthing else in there during 3 year warranty.

 

[simonsr1]

The manufacture doesn't have answers for them right now so all they can do is swap motors as needed. How would you like to be in that position???[/QUOTE]



Sounds like what I go through when trying to fix BMW's, Everytime we come out with something new to the market, nobody knows how to fix them, even the engineers that designed them

 

[doo_dr]

I believe there is something called the magnuson act (sp)
no manufacturer can make u use their oil during
a warranty period unless they provide it for free.

Yes this is true but there is a catch. They state you should use an oil that meets "specific requirements of the snowmobile" (Doo, CAT, Yamaha, Polaris). All four of them have multiple specific blends of oil for their line up. Not because it is Cool to have 4 different oil bottles on the parts shelf. If you have engine/Oil related problems and have not used the oil they know meets the requirements set forth, you have to prove the oil you used meets, or exceeds the exact requirements needed, and delivered by the recommended factory oil. In other words; "Use our oil because we have made it for a reason and if you want to use others be prepared to prove it meets our requirements". They are not telling you that you have to use thier oil, just make sure you can match what we have set forth as a requirements. Ask an engine builder if any bottle of oil that says "snowmobile oil" or "Meets all snowmobile requirements" is good to use and you may get a slap in the head.

I don't deny that there are some fantastic aftermarket lubricants on the market. Some of them even make for the Brands. My favorite 2 stroke oil is Johnson outboard oil. I run it (mixed) in race sleds all of the time and have had great success. I will not run it in any injection application because it does not flow properly in snowmobiles.