Poo does not want to have a 4s product line at this time. Too me they are betting the farm on 2s & the Indy line up keep the price down. I think Poo has a lot to offer bang for the buck but their 2s DI engines are what they are way too risky for me. The vast 4s market depends on available products with doo & AC keeps expanding their 4s product base each year & of course Yamaha has nothing but 4s. To me build them & they will come you can't buy what is not available. Doo has class leading DI 2s & the 900 Ace 4s overlaps the 2s market in the 120ish class. Why would doo offer such a sled unless they think the market wants this sled & from the postings on the topic many are buying 900 Ace. Too me Poo has a huge 4s hole in ther line up but I can also see 4s is not their focus in the Indy line up. Indys don't have the best shocks, tracks or electronic pods but like I said you don't get that for a value sled. Ac, Doo & Yamaha all expanding the 4s sled market Poo is not because they choose not too which is ok with me but in my case no use even considering poo with no 4s.
Rotax Ace 900
- Thread starter fusionfool
- Start date
Poo does not want to have a 4s product line at this time. Too me they are betting the farm on 2s & the Indy line up keep the price down. I think Poo has a lot to offer bang for the buck but their 2s DI engines are what they are way too risky for me. The vast 4s market depends on available products with doo & AC keeps expanding their 4s product base each year & of course Yamaha has nothing but 4s. To me build them & they will come you can't buy what is not available. Doo has class leading DI 2s & the 900 Ace 4s overlaps the 2s market in the 120ish class. Why would doo offer such a sled unless they think the market wants this sled & from the postings on the topic many are buying 900 Ace. Too me Poo has a huge 4s hole in ther line up but I can also see 4s is not their focus in the Indy line up. Indys don't have the best shocks, tracks or electronic pods but like I said you don't get that for a value sled. Ac, Doo & Yamaha all expanding the 4s sled market Poo is not because they choose not too which is ok with me but in my case no use even considering poo with no 4s.
D
Deleted member 10829
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Again you say "vast" 4s market. I just don't see it. What % of sled sales are 4s's? Poo says the 4s market is decreasing as a total of sled sales and Poo's "performance sled" market share is increasing thanks to the Indy. Give Poo some credit, they may know what they are talking about. When I think of all of my riding buddies and friends, out of about 15 of us, there is 1 four stroke that was just bought last year. As I said above, that will change in time and Poo will adjust. Heck, I want a 4s again someday in a good chassis.
Mark I can't give your marketing studies I don"t have & you can't give me marketing studies you don't have. AC, doo & Yamaha are all expanding their 4s products lines & Poo is not simple as that. Poo is betting the farm on the 2s Indy back to the future .....I get it. Poo raised a lot of industry eyebrows when they went public with a shrinking 4s market statement & even you say you would buy a 4s Adventure so people do want 4s sleds. I do give Poo credit for where I think they participate in the market & have said good bang for the buck for that niche. The other OEMs are not going to manufacture 4s sleds they can not sell & they see 4s differently than Poo who is alone on the 2s only island. 4s does not fit in the Indy line up simple as that & Indy 2s is the market direction for Poo this year. Again I get it no 4s for poo this year not part of their plan.
D
Deleted member 10829
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That's my point. How can you call a market "vast" that you have no statistics or figures on? In my little world, it's not vast yet. It may be in 10 years, but it's not now.
Doo, Yamaha, AC all expanding 4s lines don't call it vast then call it a growing market with increased product offerings. Just because your buds don't want 4s trail sled does not mean others feel the same way. One tends to hang with like minded people most of my buds favor 4s for trail sleds but I would not offer that as proof for anything other than their views. Yamaha went all 4s years ago now Poo wants to be known as mostly 2s brand & to me there is no absolute here just market choice & direction. You know very well sled OEMS are not going to reveal product mix numbers to the public you can't even get that from auto OEMs but one can look at the products that are offered to ID product trends. 4s sleds will be manufactured & sold when 4s sales exceed 2s sales is anyones guess. For now Poo not promoting 4s sleds ok with me I get it & understand the Poo Indy product line. Doo, AC & Yamaha all embracing & expanding more 4s products Poo the only sled OEM saying they are betting the farm on 2s but then again they have nothing new to offer on the 4s side so what else can they say we think 4s is an expanding market but we got nothing? lol Of course not Poo has to support their 2s market position as their only market position for current product line which I'm sure will sell well as long as you like Poo 2s engines & the Indy line up for trails. Always room for both tech & bang for buck.
Yes it is possible & many think that is correct but no formal study to reflect that data either. To me just look at all the new 4s product offerings Oems don't make sleds they can't sell snowless years are difficult enough then have a sled no one wants is even worse. OEMs have their market studies to support their forecast but they don't go public with that info. Yamaha went 4s only many years ago & had an opportunity to buy 2s engines from AC or make their own but said heck no not doing that not in our marketing plan. To me there is no difference with Poo saying heck no to 4s for the Indy just not part of their marketing plan this year. Indy is all about bang for the buck & indeed it is a bang but not a keeper sled for the high milage rider unless you want to keep turning it over for a new sled. IMO turnover the CFI 2s @ about 4000 miles or less too risky to keep longer.
Going to find out as I ordered a 900 GSX today!
Have 1 week to spring buy 900 renegade, and I'm still torn with the deciding. Thanks to all for info on this thread. HP, 4s, front weight issues still have me unsure of what way to go. Yamaha all 4s, but don't seem to see as many new as other brands? I put lots of miles on my sleds, then hand them down to kids. Have 2 Renegades now, both with good miles on them. I'm sure that will be the chassis.
Corner to corner in the Twistys the 900 Ace will be there with any doo sled. In the straights not so much that is where hp kicks in 4s or 2s power bands. If you don't utilize all the power 600etec offers then you will like the 900Ace. If you are looking for Gade power in the deep 900Ace will keep you wanting more HP. If riding Twistys day after day the 900 Ace will shine & excell on trails. The 900Ace is a twisty trail performer good mpg with a reliable 4s engine & can detune for family riders. I hope this helps.
Old Abe- have you had a chance to demo a 900 ACE? No better way to know than to ride one yourself.
You may be surprised on how it feels, not the stereotypical "heavy 4-stroke" that people may think. I used to have a (heavy) Yamaha Apex, as well as many 2-stroke sleds and I'll be ridng a 900 Ace. Low maintenance 4s, lighter weight-ever pick up the back end of a 4s Yamaha and then pick up the rear of a Ski Doo 2 or 4-stroke sled?
Whitedust, have you had a chance to ride an ACE 900?
Sure, it's rated at 90hp and probably won't satisfy your type of riding from what I read, but for those who don't need a 130+ hp sled and want a reliable 4-stroke, I feel Ski Doo has a hit with the 900 for its intended audience.
You may be surprised on how it feels, not the stereotypical "heavy 4-stroke" that people may think. I used to have a (heavy) Yamaha Apex, as well as many 2-stroke sleds and I'll be ridng a 900 Ace. Low maintenance 4s, lighter weight-ever pick up the back end of a 4s Yamaha and then pick up the rear of a Ski Doo 2 or 4-stroke sled?
Whitedust, have you had a chance to ride an ACE 900?
Sure, it's rated at 90hp and probably won't satisfy your type of riding from what I read, but for those who don't need a 130+ hp sled and want a reliable 4-stroke, I feel Ski Doo has a hit with the 900 for its intended audience.
I had a long 900 Ace dissussion with Greg Cook,cooksend on JD, sales at Trackside in Wausau & true niche is for riders that don't use the full delivery of hp of the 600 etec & families that want to detune hp out of engine to keep trail speeds in mid 40s for Mom & kids. Now with that said the 900 Ace overlaps the 120 hp 2s corner to corner Twisty trail market as well with equal ski skill riders but when you hits straights lakes,grades the Ace will be working hard to keep up doable sure but the 600etec & 1200 4s will do that so much better in those situations. As far test riding an Ace I could have but did not interest me just not enough hp for me for my type of riding. I have ridden 1200 GSX & was impresed but the 1200 is just a bit lacking in hp for me so I know 90hp Ace just not enough for me. On the other hand 160ish to 180 hp 4s way to much hp for me & I would be happy in the 145ish zone much like a 700 2s. I surley would not steer anyone away from Ace 900 if just riding Twisty groomed trails all you need for that but for crossover 136 tracks, powder riding, lakes & grades most will want more hp & why doo offers higher hp sleds. 900 Ace has broad interest I understand but better know what you want for 90% of your riding or could be dissappointed. When buying a tweener sled hp wise I would always go up in HP to be sure I was satisfied at least you have the hp if you need it but can't get hp it if not there simple as that for me.
With all the advise you have given on this I thought for sure you had rode one. ?
I had a long 900 Ace dissussion with Greg Cook,cooksend on JD, sales at Trackside in Wausau & true niche is for riders that don't use the full delivery of hp of the 600 etec & families that want to detune hp out of engine to keep trail speeds in mid 40s for Mom & kids. Now with that said the 900 Ace overlaps the 120 hp 2s corner to corner Twisty trail market as well with equal ski skill riders but when you hits straights lakes,grades the Ace will be working hard to keep up doable sure but the 600etec & 1200 4s will do that so much better in those situations. As far test riding an Ace I could have but did not interest me just not enough hp for me for my type of riding. I have ridden 1200 GSX & was impresed but the 1200 is just a bit lacking in hp for me so I know 90hp Ace just not enough for me. On the other hand 160ish to 180 hp 4s way to much hp for me & I would be happy in the 145ish zone much like a 700 2s. I surley would not steer anyone away from Ace 900 if just riding Twisty groomed trails all you need for that but for crossover 136 tracks, powder riding, lakes & grades most will want more hp & why doo offers higher hp sleds. 900 Ace has broad interest I understand but better know what you want for 90% of your riding or could be dissappointed. When buying a tweener sled hp wise I would always go up in HP to be sure I was satisfied at least you have the hp if you need it but can't get hp it if not there simple as that for me.
Pit Grunt
Member
You have no CLUE dust. The 900 is lite and quick to about 90. I have run 600e-tec for years and the E-tec tops at about 95 to 100. How can you talk about the ACE 900 when you have never rode one..
1200 GSX not enough for me hp wise from the seat so I no point to take resource time to test ride lower hp Ace 900 Ace which I knew was not for me. It was easy for me to sort out I know I would not be happy with any 500 or 600 2s sled & have not been down in those hp numbers since mid 90s. I have been riding 700s & 800s 2s since late 90s then graduated to 150hp 4s in 2008 so I know all about 4s powerbands compared to 2s & have ridden the entire Yamaha product line top to bottom but aways there to purchase not joyride. Also skipped the test ride on the Viper because I'm familar with the engine 135hp & power band same as GSX a little soft on hp but at 145 or with a turbo would interest me. As I said before I would not steer anyone away from the 900 Ace more than enough power for Twisty northern WI trails but not for power cruising the the UPMI just would be running the 900 Ace too hard for how I ride the UP. If you stay at 65mph all day long Ace would be fine but you are going to get smoked on grades where 80-90+ mph are the norm like on Trail 2which I ride everyday to get anywhere in UP. Just trying to help sort things out for others & explain why I don't see any harm in that.
1200 GSX not enough for me hp wise from the seat so I no point to take resource time to test ride lower hp Ace 900 Ace which I knew was not for me. It was easy for me to sort out I know I would not be happy with any 500 or 600 2s sled & have not been down in those hp numbers since mid 90s. I have been riding 700s & 800s 2s since late 90s then graduated to 150hp 4s in 2008 so I know all about 4s powerbands compared to 2s & have ridden the entire Yamaha product line top to bottom but aways there to purchase not joyride. Also skipped the test ride on the Viper because I'm familar with the engine 135hp & power band same as GSX a little soft on hp but at 145 or with a turbo would interest me. As I said before I would not steer anyone away from the 900 Ace more than enough power for Twisty northern WI trails but not for power cruising the the UPMI just would be running the 900 Ace too hard for how I ride the UP. If you stay at 65mph all day long Ace would be fine but you are going to get smoked on grades where 80-90+ mph are the norm like on Trail 2which I ride everyday to get anywhere in UP. Just trying to help sort things out for others & explain why I don't see any harm in that.
Pit Grunt
Member
So more or less you run the rail grades all day above 90 mph. Well I ride hard and anyone that rides with me laught when I went to a 600 from a 800. Now they all have 600 , because they see the real story of the ride.. Good speed with the 600 e-tec and great MPG. I have friends with YAMAHA and they wish they could get a Four stroke that did not weigh a ton . Now you have a sled the 900 SKI-DOO to go for in a sled that will do 90 to 95 and give you great MPG. I also think, it will be a good off trail in the U.P..... I guess I will find out. And yes I ride the rail grade at about 90 mph and no one passes me.
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To me the Ace 900 simply not meant for lake racing or power cruising grades but for you Aok & I have no problem with your view or how hard you ride just not important to the Ace 900 market niche. I find it puzzling that you seem perplexed with my view after ridng a doo 1200 GSX not being enough for me. I have not posted anything negative about a 900 Ace or doo GSX 1200 & agree the Ace 900 concept & market niche is neat & over laps 120 hp with a skilled rider. I don't think we really disagree on very much & I think the future in 4s sleds with their power curve is very much in the 145ish hp & down arena. I like 800 2s & 160sh HP 4s but would not buy one just too much hp to get where I'm going. I think you should reread my posts on this thread & will see a give & take as the conversation evolved. It seems you have a need to defend the Ace 900 90 HP 4s which is great but Ace 900 not going to blow off any brand 600 2s or 120hp 4s it just can't do that or doo would not have a 1200 the 900 Ace would serve that market. Be happy you bought a 900 Ace & you are comfortable with it's 90hp that can't be a bad thing as I don't think it is a bad thing at all.
Key words here ( I know all)
Again I ask what is the weight of the Yamaha long track the would be compairable to a Renegade.
What is the weight to horse power of them Yamaha ?
Again I ask what is the weight of the Yamaha long track the would be compairable to a Renegade.
What is the weight to horse power of them Yamaha ?
1200 GSX not enough for me hp wise from the seat so I no point to take resource time to test ride lower hp Ace 900 Ace which I knew was not for me. It was easy for me to sort out I know I would not be happy with any 500 or 600 2s sled & have not been down in those hp numbers since mid 90s. I have been riding 700s & 800s 2s since late 90s then graduated to 150hp 4s in 2008 so I know all about 4s powerbands compared to 2s & have ridden the entire Yamaha product line top to bottom but aways there to purchase not joyride. Also skipped the test ride on the Viper because I'm familar with the engine 135hp & power band same as GSX a little soft on hp but at 145 or with a turbo would interest me. As I said before I would not steer anyone away from the 900 Ace more than enough power for Twisty northern WI trails but not for power cruising the the UPMI just would be running the 900 Ace too hard for how I ride the UP. If you stay at 65mph all day long Ace would be fine but you are going to get smoked on grades where 80-90+ mph are the norm like on Trail 2which I ride everyday to get anywhere in UP. Just trying to help sort things out for others & explain why I don't see any harm in that.