LoveMyDobe
Active member
Just thought I would start this thread so everyone can vent and not post their opinions on Yellow Grass thread. Seems like everyone has their opinions on this. ( Sorry Dave B for ever mentioning it on your thread)
Shock Collars
- Thread starter LoveMyDobe
- Start date
Firecatguy
New member
Training with Shock Collars—Why You Should Just Say NO!
Shock Collars are euphemistically called Electronic or E-collars or Remote Training Collars. Some pet owners and novice trainers train with shock collars because they are not aware of what they can accomplish with pain-free methods or of the harm they may be doing to their dogs by shocking them.
If a trainer claims to be a positive trainer who uses E collars that don't hurt, to get the dog's attention and to motivate the dog, my question is, if it doesn't hurt, why should the collar get the dog's attention or compliance any more than a clicker, your verbal command, or a hand touch?
"Shock is not training - in the vast majority of cases it meets the criteria for abuse" says Dr. Karen Overall.
"We don't have to hurt dogs to train them." -- Becky Schultz
If you are a hunter and you want to train with non painful methods, check out this book available from Amazon.com:
POSITIVE GUN DOGS - CLICKER TRAINING FOR SPORTING BREEDS
by Jim Barry, Mary Emmen, & Susan Smith
If you'd like to learn to train your dog in a systematic, efficient manner, with force-free methods that you'll both enjoy, then this book is right for you!
If you are a pet owner with an unruly dog, considering a shock collar, please take your dog through a basic reward based obedience training program first. Later if you still need extra help, you may want to check out this alternative:
The MannersMinder Dog Training System provides a solution for many unruly behavior problems that is both effective and painless-it is available from several internet sources.
Shock Collars are euphemistically called Electronic or E-collars or Remote Training Collars. Some pet owners and novice trainers train with shock collars because they are not aware of what they can accomplish with pain-free methods or of the harm they may be doing to their dogs by shocking them.
If a trainer claims to be a positive trainer who uses E collars that don't hurt, to get the dog's attention and to motivate the dog, my question is, if it doesn't hurt, why should the collar get the dog's attention or compliance any more than a clicker, your verbal command, or a hand touch?
"Shock is not training - in the vast majority of cases it meets the criteria for abuse" says Dr. Karen Overall.
"We don't have to hurt dogs to train them." -- Becky Schultz
If you are a hunter and you want to train with non painful methods, check out this book available from Amazon.com:
POSITIVE GUN DOGS - CLICKER TRAINING FOR SPORTING BREEDS
by Jim Barry, Mary Emmen, & Susan Smith
If you'd like to learn to train your dog in a systematic, efficient manner, with force-free methods that you'll both enjoy, then this book is right for you!
If you are a pet owner with an unruly dog, considering a shock collar, please take your dog through a basic reward based obedience training program first. Later if you still need extra help, you may want to check out this alternative:
The MannersMinder Dog Training System provides a solution for many unruly behavior problems that is both effective and painless-it is available from several internet sources.
Firecatguy
New member
one thing to remeber......"ANY action gets a reaction" your dog knows that!!!!he will use it any way he can.......they just want your attention!!!!
"Shock collars are uncomfortable to begin with because of the prongs that protrude into the dog's neck. Add an electric current to that, and dogs can suffer from pain and psychological stress, which can lead to severe anxiety, displaced aggression and changes in heart and respiration rates."
"Another problem with both types of shock collars is that to the dog, the shocks are coming from out of the blue, so they could end up being associated with anything that is in the dog's immediate environment at that particular moment - be it a child, another dog, a car or a skateboarder - thus creating a psychological problem that didn't exist before the use of the shock collar."
"Positive training methods, in which dogs are rewarded for what they do "right" - rather than being punished for what they do "wrong" - are gentle and much more effective, and they don't cause psychological damage. It's so easy to train puppies and most dogs with treats and praise. Simply reward the behavior that you like, and ignore or channel unwanted behavior into a different activity - that's the bottom line. There is plenty of information about humane dog training online. Practice, patience and good timing are paramount. If you don't feel that you're up to the task, then find a humane dog trainer (one who avoids the use of pain) to help you."
how about choke collars? *** who named it that? totally wrong they are used to correct dog behavior with the noise of the chain in his ear not CHOKE EM OUT!!!!!
"Shock collars are uncomfortable to begin with because of the prongs that protrude into the dog's neck. Add an electric current to that, and dogs can suffer from pain and psychological stress, which can lead to severe anxiety, displaced aggression and changes in heart and respiration rates."
"Another problem with both types of shock collars is that to the dog, the shocks are coming from out of the blue, so they could end up being associated with anything that is in the dog's immediate environment at that particular moment - be it a child, another dog, a car or a skateboarder - thus creating a psychological problem that didn't exist before the use of the shock collar."
"Positive training methods, in which dogs are rewarded for what they do "right" - rather than being punished for what they do "wrong" - are gentle and much more effective, and they don't cause psychological damage. It's so easy to train puppies and most dogs with treats and praise. Simply reward the behavior that you like, and ignore or channel unwanted behavior into a different activity - that's the bottom line. There is plenty of information about humane dog training online. Practice, patience and good timing are paramount. If you don't feel that you're up to the task, then find a humane dog trainer (one who avoids the use of pain) to help you."
how about choke collars? *** who named it that? totally wrong they are used to correct dog behavior with the noise of the chain in his ear not CHOKE EM OUT!!!!!
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You two, I'm sure, will love this.
After our "discussion" last night, I let the dog out before calling it a day to go make yellow spots. I went out 20 minutes later and no Charlie to be found. I ended up searching the neighborhood for an hour and a half before finally locating her. I think she was a little more freaked out than I was and certainly happy when she got back home.
This is the first time since we have had her that anything like this has happened. Like I said before, she knows her boundaries and very rarely ever crosses them.
As far as the collars go, I am not proud to say I use one. I use it for the protection of the dog and others who walk or ride by. I do not want her to get hit by a car and I do not want some lawsuit crazy neighbor sueing me because they claimed my dog threatened her. She is an very friendly dog but some people don't know how to react to a dog who just wants to play. I had one lady actually mace her as Charlie was walking down the driveway towards her. I wish I would have been home then!
I am not a dog trainer and do not intend to be. I am a dog owner trying to do what I can. I know I am not alone in this regard and I can understand why "dog trainers" would see things from a different perspective than just a regular dog owner and I would assume that a trainer would understand the difference.
As far as regular dog owners in my sub, I know of at least eight that use either a wired or wireless containment system. I chose the wireless for the portabilty aspect of it.
Dave
After our "discussion" last night, I let the dog out before calling it a day to go make yellow spots. I went out 20 minutes later and no Charlie to be found. I ended up searching the neighborhood for an hour and a half before finally locating her. I think she was a little more freaked out than I was and certainly happy when she got back home.
This is the first time since we have had her that anything like this has happened. Like I said before, she knows her boundaries and very rarely ever crosses them.
As far as the collars go, I am not proud to say I use one. I use it for the protection of the dog and others who walk or ride by. I do not want her to get hit by a car and I do not want some lawsuit crazy neighbor sueing me because they claimed my dog threatened her. She is an very friendly dog but some people don't know how to react to a dog who just wants to play. I had one lady actually mace her as Charlie was walking down the driveway towards her. I wish I would have been home then!
I am not a dog trainer and do not intend to be. I am a dog owner trying to do what I can. I know I am not alone in this regard and I can understand why "dog trainers" would see things from a different perspective than just a regular dog owner and I would assume that a trainer would understand the difference.
As far as regular dog owners in my sub, I know of at least eight that use either a wired or wireless containment system. I chose the wireless for the portabilty aspect of it.
Dave
^This. We use an e-collar for the same reason. Our dog is the least aggresive dog you will ever meet but can be the most blocked headed and stubborn dog as she is young (1 yr) and has a ton of energy. As with all training methods there is a proper and improper way of using and need to be used in a responsible manner. We no longer use the "shock" feature as she responds to all commands with the audible tones from the collar.
anonomoose
New member
Having owned and used shock collars for more years than I can remember on a multitude of dogs (why do we pick pets that die sooner than birds, turtles, or horses???)....I could NOT disagree with this more.
Not only are shock collars proven effective in training very hard to train dogs, but if you chose the right collar, it is rare that you EVER use the collar to shock the dog.
First off, you NEVER use the collar in shock mode to do anything other than to stop a bad behavior. For bird dogs, that means chasing deer, going for skunks, chasing cars....etc. Why? Because as pointed out the dog will NOT associate anything other than what he is doing and what is around him at the time he gets hit with a stepped poke from the collar.
The last collar I bought had a vibrator that was selectable to vibrate- then a mild shock. Once the dog got the idea that when that vibrator was going, next was a poke, he soon learned that the vibration alone was all he needed to know that what he was doing- was wrong. I have also had dogs I never used the collar on, because they trained very easily....my current dog being an example of that...once is enough and he understood exactly what you wanted.
Many good dogs have been needlessly subjected to abuse by a collar, no doubt about that. But that is because the guy behind the remote didn't know what he was doing and didn't bother to read and understand how the remote works. Many good books have been written on the subject and I would encourage anyone who contemplates using a collar to read before they use the collar. A dog trainer paid to train dogs uses them because they get quick results...and time is money. But don't confuse that statement by thinking that he was lazy.....on the contrary, he knows how and when to use the collar. It gets the job done very quickly.
Many dogs lives might have been saved prior to one more training session running down cars, going cross country chasing deer, and many other situations where not enough training came before the dog got killed in the act.
I doubt that any dog, which given the right motivation could not be trained by use of rewards only....but it takes TIME...and take it from me, a dog that breaks away and goes off on his OWN hunt often will meet his maker well before you are "done training" and where a good reinforcement of a dog collar might just have saved his life.
For the record, when I used the collar, I tested them prior to each use with the appropriately designed testing device, and I have even put the collar around my arm and subjected the "test" on myself....with the idea that I would never want to do anything to my dog, that I would not endure myself. Nearly all modern collars can change the intensity on the fly matching the correction to the act.
As for the writer of the "inhumane" use of shock collars, either they don't know much about them, or they simply figure it is wrong and therefore expound on them with zero knowledge. Remember that some of these people also think that a pack mule should not be used to transport materials in the mountains and no animal should be exploited in this manner. I am not sure how they come to this conclusion, but it probably isn't because they have the dog's best interest in mind...it is more a personal thing, or let's call it an agenda. Either way, a dog that does what he wants to do rather than what the owner wants HIM to do is going to suffer....and how good is that?
Not only are shock collars proven effective in training very hard to train dogs, but if you chose the right collar, it is rare that you EVER use the collar to shock the dog.
First off, you NEVER use the collar in shock mode to do anything other than to stop a bad behavior. For bird dogs, that means chasing deer, going for skunks, chasing cars....etc. Why? Because as pointed out the dog will NOT associate anything other than what he is doing and what is around him at the time he gets hit with a stepped poke from the collar.
The last collar I bought had a vibrator that was selectable to vibrate- then a mild shock. Once the dog got the idea that when that vibrator was going, next was a poke, he soon learned that the vibration alone was all he needed to know that what he was doing- was wrong. I have also had dogs I never used the collar on, because they trained very easily....my current dog being an example of that...once is enough and he understood exactly what you wanted.
Many good dogs have been needlessly subjected to abuse by a collar, no doubt about that. But that is because the guy behind the remote didn't know what he was doing and didn't bother to read and understand how the remote works. Many good books have been written on the subject and I would encourage anyone who contemplates using a collar to read before they use the collar. A dog trainer paid to train dogs uses them because they get quick results...and time is money. But don't confuse that statement by thinking that he was lazy.....on the contrary, he knows how and when to use the collar. It gets the job done very quickly.
Many dogs lives might have been saved prior to one more training session running down cars, going cross country chasing deer, and many other situations where not enough training came before the dog got killed in the act.
I doubt that any dog, which given the right motivation could not be trained by use of rewards only....but it takes TIME...and take it from me, a dog that breaks away and goes off on his OWN hunt often will meet his maker well before you are "done training" and where a good reinforcement of a dog collar might just have saved his life.
For the record, when I used the collar, I tested them prior to each use with the appropriately designed testing device, and I have even put the collar around my arm and subjected the "test" on myself....with the idea that I would never want to do anything to my dog, that I would not endure myself. Nearly all modern collars can change the intensity on the fly matching the correction to the act.
As for the writer of the "inhumane" use of shock collars, either they don't know much about them, or they simply figure it is wrong and therefore expound on them with zero knowledge. Remember that some of these people also think that a pack mule should not be used to transport materials in the mountains and no animal should be exploited in this manner. I am not sure how they come to this conclusion, but it probably isn't because they have the dog's best interest in mind...it is more a personal thing, or let's call it an agenda. Either way, a dog that does what he wants to do rather than what the owner wants HIM to do is going to suffer....and how good is that?
I did the same thing as moose. I tested it on myself when I was setting up the radius at all the levels of shock. She RARELY gets the shock treatment as, like I said before, she knows the boundaries and, as I feel more comfortable that she will stay within those as she gets older, (she's only a year old), I would like to gradually get it down to just the vibration or audio warning. She isn't ready for that yet as I found out last night.
Dave
Dave
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I have trained alot of dogs & have a yellow lab who sleeps on a leather couch & spends about 8 hours everyday with me. I agree with all of u that say its up 2 the dog owner 2 train there animals but its kind of hard to train the natural instinct out of alot of hunting dogs. I use an invisible fence & would rather see my dog get alittle zap than to be laying in the road dieing because it saw a pheasant or a duck on the other side of the road. Dogs r not as dumb as people think all they have 2 do is be zapped once or twice and they will get with the program. Alot of hunters have quite alot of money stuck into bear, coon, rabbit & bird dogs I know alot of people use tracking devices on there dogs so when they r getting close to a highway they can get the dog of the sent of the animal with a shock collar which I would rather see than the dog being hit by a vehicle.
dscosmo, that was good, lol.
used an underground fence at the last house and was able to train our lab when we moved into a different house using the flags alone, never put the fence in and could leave him outside all day with no one home.
that dog is no longer around and i wish that i started our new lab with a fence last year as he sticks around when we are home but don't trust him enough without the fence to leave him free when we are gone. i still have the underground unit and should put it in, if he runs into the road after a horseback rider or car and someone gets hurt, i'd feel like an idiot for not using it.
my 3 yr old son is harder to keep track of than the dog, i need a leash/collar/kennel or something for him , dang they are quick, found him 7 feet up a tree yesterday, hard to find if you cant see them
used an underground fence at the last house and was able to train our lab when we moved into a different house using the flags alone, never put the fence in and could leave him outside all day with no one home.
that dog is no longer around and i wish that i started our new lab with a fence last year as he sticks around when we are home but don't trust him enough without the fence to leave him free when we are gone. i still have the underground unit and should put it in, if he runs into the road after a horseback rider or car and someone gets hurt, i'd feel like an idiot for not using it.
my 3 yr old son is harder to keep track of than the dog, i need a leash/collar/kennel or something for him , dang they are quick, found him 7 feet up a tree yesterday, hard to find if you cant see them
srt20
Active member
I trained my lab with a e-collar and invisible fence. I also trained him with treats and praise. He is a quick learner. He has been tickled 3 times with the invisible fence. I have 1.75 acres at the intersection of 2 roads, and he does not wear any collar outside anymore. He will only leave my property if in a vehicle, or a human takes him for a walk out the driveway only. He has not worn the fence collar for a year and he just turned 2.
I bird hunt my lab also. I do not put his e-collar on him during hunts either. He has been trained with treats and praise, and ALSO with the e-collar that when we want him to do something he does it. Now before you go and think I have a zombie for a dog, he is a house pet first and foremost. He has been trained this way to prevent harm or death. I did not get aggressive with training. I didnt train him to go left, or go right. He has a nose for where the bird is. But if I say "wait", he stops on a dime. If I say "back", he hustles back. Same with "leave it" If he is chasing a rabbit, he WILL stop if told to wait. If I drop pills on the floor, he WILL NOT touch them if told to leave it.
I feel as good as I can about my dog's safety. My dog will not play in the road, he will not steal some food or snag a harmful pill that got dropped. If he is in a dangerous situation and someone is around, we can easily remove him from that situation. No shock collars for the last year. But if I have to reenforce a few commands, I will.
I would much rather zap my dog a few times to "learn him" than have to pay for surgery, or put him down.
Think of it this way, when you were little what taught you not to shut a door with your hand in the way?? Not you parents telling you not to do that! It was either the pain or surprise of actually doing it.
Dogs are just like 2 year old kids, sometimes you learn the first time, sometimes you dont. But eventually you will learn. That is of course unless mommy and daddy coddle them to much! Which is a whole different topic....
I bird hunt my lab also. I do not put his e-collar on him during hunts either. He has been trained with treats and praise, and ALSO with the e-collar that when we want him to do something he does it. Now before you go and think I have a zombie for a dog, he is a house pet first and foremost. He has been trained this way to prevent harm or death. I did not get aggressive with training. I didnt train him to go left, or go right. He has a nose for where the bird is. But if I say "wait", he stops on a dime. If I say "back", he hustles back. Same with "leave it" If he is chasing a rabbit, he WILL stop if told to wait. If I drop pills on the floor, he WILL NOT touch them if told to leave it.
I feel as good as I can about my dog's safety. My dog will not play in the road, he will not steal some food or snag a harmful pill that got dropped. If he is in a dangerous situation and someone is around, we can easily remove him from that situation. No shock collars for the last year. But if I have to reenforce a few commands, I will.
I would much rather zap my dog a few times to "learn him" than have to pay for surgery, or put him down.
Think of it this way, when you were little what taught you not to shut a door with your hand in the way?? Not you parents telling you not to do that! It was either the pain or surprise of actually doing it.
Dogs are just like 2 year old kids, sometimes you learn the first time, sometimes you dont. But eventually you will learn. That is of course unless mommy and daddy coddle them to much! Which is a whole different topic....
There is nothing wrong with an e-collar when used correctly. However it takes quite a bit or training and experience from the trainer to use correctly. It is just another training tool. if used incorrectly you will not benefit the dog. All that being said I don't see how an E-collar would be needed for general obedience.
Agree, my 1 1/2 year old lab responds to the beep on the collar 95% of the time. And when he has his collar on, actually he is much better behaved. Occasionally I have to give a LOW positive correction. He just perks his ears and then runs back to me. I have never had the collar set where he even yelped.
snow_monkey
New member
The zap just gives mild discomfort, nothing like sticking a pair of scissors in an outlet. It is unpleasant but does not hurt the dog. I have been zapped a few times it is not a big deal.
jerkbait_1075
New member
E collars, shock collars whatever u want to call them are absolutly OK and Appropriate when used correctly. Like anything in life its all about moderation. I have hunting labs. They know what the collar is and the also know that the collar means "its time to go to work". Get the collars out and the go "bezerk" with happiness and excitedness. Not Fear i know someone out here is going to believe thats the case. My dogs understand the collar and know that behavior has consequences. I have taken a jolt at all levels to know what they are feeling at the time of correction. Its no big deal and I dont feel bad at correcting them. And like previously stated with the proper collar just the feel and understanding of whats on their neck leads to very little correction if any. Maybe its the cop in me but Punishment vs. Reward, i'll take punishment anytime IT WORKS!!!!! And from a man thats taken a hit with a Tazer a little momentary shock from a shock collar is no comparison to 5 seconds of pure TERROR!!!!
anonomoose
New member
That depends on whether your master likes your new cologne from Odalah-skunk Inc. product of USA!
Hey, he's only been sprayed three times, all three while out for a walk with the wife.
So, you're a reasonable person, moose, so answer this:
The DOG
Has been sprayed 3 times by a SKUNK
While walking with the WIFE
Who gets the shock collar to change the behavior?
snow_monkey
New member
I think the most commonly made mistake is when the unit is run near a fence or metal object also sharp angles. If you read the instructions the layout is crucial to success. My previous lab was subject to only 1 correction, 'zap ' as we call it. He made it a point to stay away from the white flags and instantly associated it with the sound. He only escaped once when the battery went low but we found him on the neighbors porch!
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