I'm with jerkbait on this one take away the pension or annuity then fire fighters & police are going to be difficult jobs to fill. No reason pensions can not be kept intact by private sector or governments unless the entity chooses to not provide the bene. Still plenty of company pensions out there if it is important to you but you have to stick it to qualify. If pension funds are managed well not over levered then there will be plenty for everyone....not well managed then that is another problem.
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Sooooooo Happy It Is Over!!
- Thread starter whitedust
- Start date
I have a real issue with laying this problem at the feet of the guy in the patrol car or the woman in the classroom. The people on the street are the recipients of the benefits, not the architects of them. Let's consider our neighbors in Illinois, which is now considered the second most financially troubled state, with over $140 billion in pension debt http://www.illinoisisbroke.com/.
Illinois is also probably the most corrupt state government in the nation. Mike Madigan has been Speaker of the House for all but 3 of the last 30 years...30 years! During that time the sweetheart contracts were developed and enriched, all to the benefit of Madigan and his cronies so the union rank and file, and the union leadership got out the vote and the money to keep the political machine in power. The Cook County political machine survives.
And when the political machine realized they couldn't afford to pay the piper, they just borrowed, and now Illinois spends $3 for every $2 it brings in. And last session, once again, they refused to deal with it. The pain continues. The loss of leadership is pervasive.
Are the contracts unrealistic? Probably, particularly if you read the Trib series on pension abuse. But the cop in the car was offered this, he did not design it. And he paid his share. And the taxpayers of Illinois paid their share. And Madigan, Blagojevich, Ryan, and the rest of the crooks kept smokin' fat cigars and eating $65 steaks at Gibson's, and stealing the money by short funding the pensions.
There's your problem. Bi***ing about the cop ain't gonna solve it. Getting rid of the cronies might.
Illinois is also probably the most corrupt state government in the nation. Mike Madigan has been Speaker of the House for all but 3 of the last 30 years...30 years! During that time the sweetheart contracts were developed and enriched, all to the benefit of Madigan and his cronies so the union rank and file, and the union leadership got out the vote and the money to keep the political machine in power. The Cook County political machine survives.
And when the political machine realized they couldn't afford to pay the piper, they just borrowed, and now Illinois spends $3 for every $2 it brings in. And last session, once again, they refused to deal with it. The pain continues. The loss of leadership is pervasive.
Are the contracts unrealistic? Probably, particularly if you read the Trib series on pension abuse. But the cop in the car was offered this, he did not design it. And he paid his share. And the taxpayers of Illinois paid their share. And Madigan, Blagojevich, Ryan, and the rest of the crooks kept smokin' fat cigars and eating $65 steaks at Gibson's, and stealing the money by short funding the pensions.
There's your problem. Bi***ing about the cop ain't gonna solve it. Getting rid of the cronies might.
F
fusion
Guest
Again, I have to respectfully disagree. Take away the pensions, raise the base starting salary by 5 -10% and people will still flock to be cops.Why? Easy - because it ISN'T that hard of a job for a person with average intelligence.
Let me ask a question, and I again, I didn't bring this subject up, the thread just gravitated there...what percentage of cops do you estimate are highly motivated, hard workers? And how exactly do you quantify a policeman as "hard working"? Is solving more crime than average considered to be a hard working, skilled cop, OR is writing the most traffic tickets per month considered the hardest working?
Let me ask a question, and I again, I didn't bring this subject up, the thread just gravitated there...what percentage of cops do you estimate are highly motivated, hard workers? And how exactly do you quantify a policeman as "hard working"? Is solving more crime than average considered to be a hard working, skilled cop, OR is writing the most traffic tickets per month considered the hardest working?
jerkbait_1075
New member
The dangers of being a cop are seriously overstated???? You know its sentiment like that which makes me cant wait for my 20 years of service so i can retire and live like a Fat Hog on my 50% base salary pension????? What a joke. Obviously I'm biased being on the job and all. But the dangers???? Its not the gun thats dangerous. I work for a small department directly adjacent to a large metro area. I have been shot in the direction of, not at. Dont want to make it sound worse than it was. I have been standing next to your partner when he pulls the trigger. It gets very real in a hurry. But those dangers are overstated!!!! Am I a martyr, No. Do I think i deserve the same praise as our soldiers over sea, No. But to imply that the dangers of policing are misrepresented is disrepectful to every officer out there. Even in a small department ive been involved in shootings. But more dangerous than the gun are the other things cops do. 2 guys from my department have been hit by cars while performing simple traffic stops!!! Ever think about the danger in that???? 3 members have sustained serious injuries while doing things like assisting EMS at the scene of Code Blue Calls or bad Traffic accident!!!! Ever think about that???? And no they werent fat overweight cops. My department is serious about physical fitness and requires physical fitness testing and maintaining a level of good physical health. The one injury occurred to a very fit body builder officer. What about the times you get spit on, hit, bit, punched. Yes you know to expect that going in, But??? Spitting and biting you know what types of diseases are out there. But I suppose communicable illness is overstated to. Show some respect. I respect the plumber that comes to my house and fixes the toilet. I respect the mechanic that fixes my car. I respect the lady at the grocery store that checks me out. Show some respect. The world would be better off. But nobody ever likes a cop until they perform CPR on your father when he has a heart attack and the cop "makes a save" on him. Nobody like a cop until their garage gets broken into and the cop recovers your stolen sled and arrest the guys responsible. Nobody likes a cop until your wife or girlfriend is broken down in her car along the highway at 3am and that cop sits there with her until help arrives. Noboby ever likes a cop....... And now because we want to collect the pensions given to us under state statute, pensions that WE LARGELY FUND nobody likes a cop.
Again, I have to respectfully disagree. Take away the pensions, raise the base starting salary by 5 -10% and people will still flock to be cops.Why? Easy - because it ISN'T that hard of a job for a person with average intelligence.
Let me ask a question, and I again, I didn't bring this subject up, the thread just gravitated there...what percentage of cops do you estimate are highly motivated, hard workers? And how exactly do you quantify a policeman as "hard working"? Is solving more crime than average considered to be a hard working, skilled cop, OR is writing the most traffic tickets per month considered the hardest working?
But whether or not the employee is hardworking has nothing to do with the cost of the contract. It is the contract, not the employees' performance, that is causing the financial difficulty. And the contracts are negotiated to get the politicians re-elected.
If the cop on the beat is a fat donut eating slob who hasn't arrested anyone of importance for a decade, the contract is keeping him there. And the reason the contract does that is Michael Madigan. If Madigan pushed through pension reform he would lose his Gibson's steaks.
From the Trib "Fueling the belief that nothing would happen on the issue was Madigan's move on the eve of adjournment to turn over sponsorship of the comprehensive pension reform bill to Cross. The Oswego GOP leader said he had half the votes needed to pass the measure, but when Madigan said he would vote against it, Quinn came up short trying to gather Democratic votes."
jerkbait_1075
New member
Whether its a contract or a pension, If a city or goverment doesnt like the deal they entered into then dont enter into it in the first place?????? If the public decides they dont want to pay any portion of a public pension then fine..... Change it for new hires. but how do you take something away from a guy like me with 19 years in or the retired cop living on the deal they were "offered"???? Thats is simply not fair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
F
fusion
Guest
Whether its a contract or a pension, If a city or goverment doesnt like the deal they entered into then dont enter into it in the first place?????? If the public decides they dont want to pay any portion of a public pension then fine..... Change it for new hires. but how do you take something away from a guy like me with 19 years in or the retired cop living on the deal they were "offered"???? Thats is simply not fair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good point - and probably what it will eventually come to.
Just like social security grandfathering in everyone over a certain age, say 55.
Eventually you have to deal with government legacy costs to get a handle on spending and balance budgets.
One thing I want to make perfectly clear - I'm just arguing the extremes - in reality these issues are too toxic for any lawmaker to tackle in any aggressive way.
Scott Walker was very shrewd in discluding the fire fighters and police unions from his reforms.
jerkbait_1075
New member
Fusion im glad we seem to find common ground. Believe you me, I totally get the goverment waste, overspending, ect. I applaud Walker, at least for his drive, determination and willingness to be the first to actually try and tackle the problem. While I might not totally agree with his entire method the man does deserve respect for his convictions and fighting for "change". My only complaint is with anyone that does not see the work of a police officer or firefighter seperate from and deserving different considerations than that of a Teacher, Judge, Legislature jerk at the capitol, highway worker, some sort of other state or goverment worker. To believe that Police work is overated concerning danger is just laughable. And to believe that simply raising the pay by 5 to 10% would have people knocking the door down to get the job is also laughable. When I was taking police exams to get hired in the 90's it was not uncommon to "test" with 200-400 other applicants to get one single position. In my area now the last time we tested 40 took out app's, like 28 showed up to take the physical exam, 25 pass the physical and took the written, we ended up with like a pool of 20 actual applicants. Then once you begin doing background examinations and psychological examinations we were lucky to end up with 10 actual canidates to consider. Then by the time you get around to hiring them half of those will already have jobs. Its not as easy as you think it might be. And to suggest that any person in the public would be ok with just anyone being a cop because they are willing to take the job?? Do you really want a person out there with a badge and a gun in that position of authority just because "anyone can do it". Or do you want the "right" qualified, educated and SCREENED person that is willing to take on such a "unique" ( I wont say challenging or dangerous cause we will go back to argueing) job. Who do you want pulling over your teenage daughter or helping your wife at 2 am. Some guy who can do the job because they raised the pay a bit or some guy who was screened and desires to do the job because. I also would argue that any cop that is lazy and donut eating is no different than any other employee in the private sector, GET RID OF THEM. I dont want that person on my shift or being my back up anyways. And there are dead beat cops out there!!!!! But if there system doesnt allow for those people to be fired than it is the "system" that is broken not the profession and the guys doing the job respectfully.....
life isn't fair jerk bait. every where in america you read about hear about pensions being cut, insurance being slashed, wages being froze, benefits being trimmed. its the world we live in. while i respect your profession it is not your RIGHT to have a deal last a lifetime. i haven't has a raise in three years I know many people that have not had one in 5 years. How many raises have you had in 5? I imagine 5.
this is the new world we live in and peole have to get used to it.
this is the new world we live in and peole have to get used to it.
Whether its a contract or a pension, If a city or goverment doesnt like the deal they entered into then dont enter into it in the first place?????? If the public decides they dont want to pay any portion of a public pension then fine..... Change it for new hires. but how do you take something away from a guy like me with 19 years in or the retired cop living on the deal they were "offered"???? Thats is simply not fair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jerkbait_1075
New member
Timo,
Actually no raises for the first two years of a three contract. We also willingly worked with the city and gave up retirement health ins but thanks for just assuming that all government workers are greedy bastards. We do get a two percent raise this last year of our contract.
Actually no raises for the first two years of a three contract. We also willingly worked with the city and gave up retirement health ins but thanks for just assuming that all government workers are greedy bastards. We do get a two percent raise this last year of our contract.
Timo,
Actually no raises for the first two years of a three contract. We also willingly worked with the city and gave up retirement health ins but thanks for just assuming that all government workers are greedy bastards. We do get a two percent raise this last year of our contract.
I don't know if we feel all public workers are greedy but the private sector has been taking it in the shorts for the pass 10-15 years when it comes to pensions & healthcare. Then the teachers went nuts when Walker & Christie had them pay more for healthcare which was way overdue. I think the WI teachers overreacted to the cuts brought the national media & unions into WI to demonstrate forced recall elections & generally turned the public against them. This was really bad PR & a lot of people felt the entire movement was sour grapes & a bunch of babies crying over nothing more than a trend in the private sector that had been present for many years. There is no "cake" out there worldwide for anyone public or private & it will be years before we recover from the Great Recession.
michaeladams
New member
i am a VOLUTEER fire fighter. I never needed a police officer to protect me and i live so far out in the country that the only thing to save would be the basement. i say let them pay just like the rest of us.
i am a VOLUTEER fire fighter. I never needed a police officer to protect me and i live so far out in the country that the only thing to save would be the basement. i say let them pay just like the rest of us.
So therefore, everybody lives so far out in the country that the only thing to save would be the basement?
Remember here, folks, that there are at least two parties involved in a contract. If the local/county/state government didn't like the terms of it, they weren't obligated to sign it. Takes two to tango -- be ticked at the cops and firefighters for pushing for such "sweet" deals if you must, but remember that their employers signed the contract, too.
And to those of you who think these jobs are just walks in the park, why don't you or why didn't you try a career in them (especially since the deals are so "sweet"?)
Remember here, folks, that there are at least two parties involved in a contract. If the local/county/state government didn't like the terms of it, they weren't obligated to sign it.
But therein lies the problem. The issue is not that the government didn't like the contract. The issue is that the government is making contracts that do not reflect the will of the people, which is a rational view of revenue vs. expense. The government is fine with special interest contracts, the people are not.
That's what's driving the political unrest, IMHO. In the good old days of economic expansion we overlooked this because we were all getting a bigger share of an expanding pie. Now, the pie has shrunk, and these sweetheart deals don't look so "fair" anymore, and the only way to change them is to change the government, i.e. "throw out the idiots" who made the contracts.
Think about the pension mess in Illinois. Rational people would never have negotiated contracts like that in private industry, never. Read the Tribune series on pensions. Even if you only read 10% of the articles you will shake your head and mutter 'Who are the idiots that negotiated this?"
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mjkaliszak
New member
I told my wife .... It's a Good Thing , that he has gotten re-elected. She agreed. That's where we are at. ( WE ) the people need to take back control of this thing called " government ". It is a self serving pig, filled with lobbyists & corruption. Gov Walker simply had to address the situation, this may be uncomfortable for some to swallow but needed to be done. Plus it sets a good example of what is to come. Other states need to get with the program. " The pie " has shrunk.
Sorry, but I can't get into my biased view of Law enforcement, Fire fighters , Educators and any comparison to OUR Military.
There is no comparison. Short but simply put.
Sorry, but I can't get into my biased view of Law enforcement, Fire fighters , Educators and any comparison to OUR Military.
There is no comparison. Short but simply put.
michaeladams
New member
i volunteer not for the money. i volunteer for the greater good. i have a job in the private sector and pay for my retirement and healthcare just like an american should. too many people think they should get preferential treatment. just because you can doesn't mean you should. speaking of contracts, i don't remember voting on anything like that.
But therein lies the problem. The issue is not that the government didn't like the contract. The issue is that the government is making contracts that do not reflect the will of the people, which is a rational view of revenue vs. expense. The government is fine with special interest contracts, the people are not.
That's what's driving the political unrest, IMHO. In the good old days of economic expansion we overlooked this because we were all getting a bigger share of an expanding pie. Now, the pie has shrunk, and these sweetheart deals don't look so "fair" anymore, and the only way to change them is to change the government, i.e. "throw out the idiots" who made the contracts.
Think about the pension mess in Illinois. Rational people would never have negotiated contracts like that in private industry, never. Read the Tribune series on pensions. Even if you only read 10% of the articles you will shake your head and mutter 'Who are the idiots that negotiated this?"
I don't disagree at all. But instead of people being ticked at cops and firefighters for taking what was offered, they ought to direct their anger at the parties responsible for offering it. It's not the employee's job to figure out if their employer can afford the compensation package they offer -- that's why they have accountants and financial managers. It's also why we vote -- if you don't like the job somebody is doing (i.e., not reflective of the will of the people), then vote them out.
I told my wife .... It's a Good Thing , that he has gotten re-elected. She agreed. That's where we are at. ( WE ) the people need to take back control of this thing called " government ". It is a self serving pig, filled with lobbyists & corruption. Gov Walker simply had to address the situation, this may be uncomfortable for some to swallow but needed to be done. Plus it sets a good example of what is to come. Other states need to get with the program. " The pie " has shrunk.
Sorry, but I can't get into my biased view of Law enforcement, Fire fighters , Educators and any comparison to OUR Military.
There is no comparison. Short but simply put.
While I have nothing but respect and admiration for our military and would not necessarily compare their job with that of cops and firefighters, the fact is that they do share several similarities. That's part of the reason police departments and fire departments are called "paramilitary organizations".
i volunteer not for the money. i volunteer for the greater good. i have a job in the private sector and pay for my retirement and healthcare just like an american should. too many people think they should get preferential treatment. just because you can doesn't mean you should. speaking of contracts, i don't remember voting on anything like that.
If you volunteer for the greater good, then why not volunteer for your job in the private sector and save the company some money? I'm sure they'd appreciate it. Just because they're willing to pay you doesn't mean you should take it, right?
You as a taxpayer obviously don't get to vote on public employee contracts. You vote for somebody to do that for you and hope that they will represent your interests. If you don't like the job they do, then you vote them out.
I didn't pay into my retirement? Wow, I didn't know that. I guess I learned something new today.
Exactly!!!!
i don't know if we feel all public workers are greedy but the private sector has been taking it in the shorts for the pass 10-15 years when it comes to pensions & healthcare. Then the teachers went nuts when walker & christie had them pay more for healthcare which was way overdue. I think the wi teachers overreacted to the cuts brought the national media & unions into wi to demonstrate forced recall elections & generally turned the public against them. This was really bad pr & a lot of people felt the entire movement was sour grapes & a bunch of babies crying over nothing more than a trend in the private sector that had been present for many years. There is no "cake" out there worldwide for anyone public or private & it will be years before we recover from the great recession.
jerkbait_1075
New member
The reason I became a police officer was two fold. First I had a family member who was a long standing county sheriff. 30 plus years as elected sheriff. He was perhaps the hardest working man I have ever known. Day or night he was there. People in the county ousted to laugh saying that he must have slept with his cloths on. He slept with a scanner in his bedroom. House fire in the middle of the night? He was there in uniform. Truly an amazingly dedicated man. Secondly when I was young I watched as a police officers saved the life of a very close friend of mine. Not only was he there to help he was also the most compassion person in a time of crisis. I wil never forget that day. Since then I have always been truly respectful that any person would risk so much for a total stranger. Look. I totally get what you all are saying. I just think in the grand scheme of government waste of our taxpayer dollars there must be away to make concessions as a public sector worker and still get the finances under control. If you all feel that just ripping the bandaid off is the only way to fix the problem than I guesss the Feds should shut Medicare down tomorrow and let all the seniors take it in the shorts to........ Social security is equally bankrupt and a drain on the tax payer".... Shut that down to. And all of you who have paid money into social security get nothing back like your share you paid in just like Ihow you don't want me to get any of the ten percent that I have paid in to my pension for the last nineteen years. All these issues are complicated. I agree with changing, or phasing out any of these government programs including my pension put u just can't take everything away in one fail swoop....